Mexican Prelate Files Lawsuit In Response To Calls For A Real 'Catholic Bishop'

[JReducation]

Wasnt John the baptist considered laity and did he not speak out against the clergy?

John the Baptist was not Catholic. Catholics are bound by Canon Law, which is given to us by the Living Law, who is the pope.

Canon law does say that the faithful, this includes the laity, have the right to express their grievances and needs; however, one must use the systems that the Church has in place for that purpose.

Airing out the laundry does not solve the problem and does a great deal of harm to the Church and to the people who do this. The Holy See does not take kindly to this kind of behavior. On the other hand, the Holy See is very receptive to the pain, struggles, challenges and difficulties of the faithful throughout the world. The Vatican wants to hear about it, but through the proper chanels, not on the 6:00 news.

We have to practice prudence. The fact that the bishop is taking this to court is also a matter of concern. My belief is that it only aggravates the problem, unless the harassment has endangered his person or property. Then he has a right to seek legal protection under the law. If it’s a problem of words going back and forth, there may be another way out of this impasse.

The Sense of the Faithful does not just apply in matters of faith and morals, it also applies in matters of virtue. Prudence is one of them. Faith, morals and virtue are never in conflict with each other. When we do something that is uncharitable, imprudent or hateful, because we’re angry, our defense of the faith loses power.

We do not own the Church. Attacks on clergy and religious out of anger, resentment, frustration, outrage and other feelings are destructive. There are clergy and religious who deserve to be called out, but it must be done according to the law of the Church and without diminishing the role and office of the person in the eyes of the world observing us.

St. Francis taught that there was a difference between fraternal correction and an attack on those who are our superiors. He also wrote that if the superior commands us to sin, one may never obey. If the superior commands what we may consider a bad idea, but it’s not a sin, we must be silent, offer it up as a penance and obey. He did not write this for the friars. He wrote it for the laity of his day, because they were always in some uproar over what the bishop or the local priest commanded of them, did or failed to do. He took it upon himself to educate the laity in the proper way of handling these situations. You don’t have to cooperate with sin, but you do have to honor clergy and religious. St. Lawrence of Brindisi repeated this in the 1500s when people were upset about the abuses in the Church. He was sent out to deal with the people. He repeats the obligation of fraternal correction without disrespect.

It’s interesting, because each time these things have happened, the Church has called on Franciscans to go out and teach the laity how to handle these matters. To Ireland, they sent a Franciscan Cardinal. I think it’s because Francis came up with a pastoral response that works.

The system works because it’s based on fraternity. The people of God sit as members of a family, not as enemies. Together, they lay before the Church authorities their concerns. The Church authorities has the task of sorting out truth, fiction, misunderstandings and differences in perceptions. In every story, there is a little bit of each.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FCEGM]

And what if their Bishop has forgotten, or rather betrayed his?

:sad_yes: Shades of the Catholics under Arian bishops.

 

[JReducation]

And what if their Bishop has forgotten, or rather betrayed his?

:sad_yes: Shades of the Catholics under Arian bishops.

There are two points here.

First: because there were such situations such as the Arian bishops the abuses from the Middle Ages up to the Protestant Reformation, the Church has put in place systems to deal with these problems: Roman Congregations, Canon Laws, and Curia Departments where people should file their concerns. At the time of the Arian heresies, these systems were not in place and people were less sophisticated. Today, we have systems and people should be more sophisticated in the use of due process, both in civil and ecclesial law.

Second, there is a tendency on these threads to read these articles and quickly jump to the condemnation of the clergy. That’s a dangerous mindset. Every time I read one of these threads I walk away with the feeling that there are many Catholics who are too ready to believe the worse about their bishops, priests and religious without knowledge of all the details. There is an underlying resentment, which may have roots in legitimate indignation over previous wrongs. However, we must be very careful that our resentment doesn’t become so powerful that it colors how we respond to such reports without kowing the whole story.

My Franciscan brother, Archbishop Chaput recently reminded us of the following.

**In particular, the clergy’s leadership in the Church should always be marked with humility and service “and never by a sense of entitlement,” he said. “Bishops, priests and deacons are too often weak and sinful. They need to be held to high standards. Some deserve to be chastised.”

“But men and women didn’t found the Church,” he continued. “They don’t own her, and they have no license to reinvent her.”

Although sin and failure “need to be named,” he said, “when people deride their bishops and priests out of pride and resentment or some perverse desire for what they perceive as ‘power,’ they undermine the Church herself, and they set themselves against the God, whose vessel she is.”**

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-chaput-the-church-belongs-to-jesus-christ/#ixzz1Urr7FTj7

He’s operating out of the Franciscan principle that I explained in my previous post.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Chrysotom]

Theology teaches us there is something called sensus fidei which is the power of the Spirit which helps the faithful adhere without error to the truth. When there were heretical bishops in the early Church, no one was going to tell those newly baptized Catholics that Christ was not divine because they knew better!

When we hear comments like this:

Know that *sensus fidei *is still alive and well in the Church today. We may stand on the power of the promises of Christ that HIS Church will not fail.

St Chrysotom had it right when he described the paving of the floor of hell.Even St Paul reproved and corrected the first Pope for not practicing what he preached and he was well within his rights as a Catholic to do so.The laiety-the Body of Christ has every right to criticise and castigate those clerical members of our Faith who preach heresy and cause scandal to His Church.I know “my place” but I also know my duty as a Catholic.I will kiss ANY Bishop’s hand as he is a successor to the Apostles but he had better be unequivocably orthodox or I will be quite vocal about it.As far as “hiding dirty laundry” goes-never again.I think we’ve learned THAT particular lesson.

In seminary the Sin of Clerical Pride is taught and discussed and in a lot of cases some remedial classes should be offered.

 

[comrade1789]

The laity should know their place.

It is never appropriate to air dirty laundry.

However, it is entirely within the rights of the laity to organize and bring their grievences to the attention of Rome.

I can agree, I do agree. I am divided on this.

 

[Robert_Bay]

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[vz71]

In my mind, going to Rome with the grievence in a group is an entirely seperate thing from public demonstrations.

The public demonstration airs dirty laundry for everyone to see and accomplishes little else.
Organizing and going to their superior is at least the proper channel.

So is the intent to embarrass the church or get something done?

 

[JReducation]

In my mind, going to Rome with the grievence in a group is an entirely seperate thing from public demonstrations.

The public demonstration airs dirty laundry for everyone to see and accomplishes little else.
Organizing and going to their superior is at least the proper channel.

So is the intent to embarrass the church or get something done?

I believe that if we go back to that statement made by Archbishop Chaput, it lays it out clearly. There are things that clergy and religious do or don’t do for which they should be called out.

However, it is not appropriate to let one’s resentment, frustration, pride or what in common language would be called “an attitude” determine how one operates… If the Church has processes and procedures for these kinds of problems, then that’s the way to go.

It is counterproductive to take your bishop and hang him out on a clothes line and then turn around and say to a non Catholic that you believe that bishops are the successors of the Apostles and that their office is sacred. The onlooker does not understand the irony of it all. Your words say one thing and your actions say another. The Church condemns this kind of behavior, because it does not help anyone. That’s why Canon Law is very explicit that the laity must treat clergy and religious with reverence. It’s not for the benefit of the clerics and religious, it’s for the benefit of those who are looking and for the respect that is due to both, the clerical state and the consecrated life. The individual may be a loose canon.

We have had good examples of how the Church treats people who are out on a limb, be they sex offenders, disobedient bishops or just plain crazy people. She condemns their actions, but she does not humiliate or attack them. That is not what Christ does to us when we sin.

In addition to this, we’re not vigilantes. It seems that we are cultivating a mentality that anything that is said against clergy and religious is readily accepted as truth and we jump to the attack; at the same time, we want to call ourselves Catholic. That’s not the way that Catholics should behave or the way that they should treat each other or anyone else for that matter. Everyone has a right to due process. Just because an article appears online that says that Bishop X said this or did that does not mean that the writer has all of the facts. You only have the facts, if the bishop himself is doing the talking. Otherwise, you have a report that is worthy of investigation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Linda_Marie]

Confirmed: Vatican calls Mexican Bishop to Rome over ties to pro-abortion/gay groups
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=589230

SALTILLO, August 12, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Bishop Raul Vera López of the Diocese of Saltillo, Mexico, will be meeting with Vatican officials in late August or early September to discuss his affiliation with a homosexual organization that embraces the “gay” lifestyle and condones homosexual relationships.

 

[vz71]

This is a good thing, but I am afraid people will learn the wrong lesson from it.

The way the people handled it was entirely incorrect. That the Vatican is looking into the matter has to do with the Bishop and his behavior then in how the people acted.

But the people will learn otherwise, and act even worse next time around.

 

[Tigg]

I do not condone the actions of the faithful in the manner they presented their objections, which, imho, lacked charity. However, being human, sometimes we forget the difference between being zealous for the faith (a very good thing) and being a zealot!

I think bad example has been shown by all the players in this sorry situation, but I am sympathetic to the faithful, who, bottom-line, are trying to defend truth in a scandal-ridden time of church history which also is showing an unprecedented deviance from orthodoxy. I would hope that our teachers would not only clarify the eternal, revealed truth, but also act in an exemplary virtuous manner in understanding their community and carrying through with appropriate pastoral concern.

 

[Urbano_Macchi]

Confirmed: Vatican calls Mexican Bishop to Rome over ties to pro-abortion/gay groups
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=589230

Benedict XVI has already removed two bishops this year, one for gross mismanagement and one for heresy. It looks like he is taking a more hands-on approach. If there really is a problem in the Diocese of Saltillo, then I’m sure we will see action taken by the Vatican.

Who knows, maybe the Archdiocese of Boston will be next.

 

[comrade1789]

Benedict XVI has already removed two bishops this year, one for gross mismanagement and one for heresy. It looks like he is taking a more hands-on approach. If there really is a problem in the Diocese of Saltillo, then I’m sure we will see action taken by the Vatican.

Who knows, maybe the Archdiocese of Boston will be next.

What is there, like 5000 Bishops in the world? It takes a lot of time and resources to remove a Bishop. And the pope is a very, very busy man. I wouldn’t hold your breath in hopes that any particular Bishop will be removed, no matter how much in need of conversion he may be in.