Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[awsiukiewicz]

I feel it is a moral choice if people cannot survive on 7.25 an hour. I pay the kid across the street more than that to help me out. Why should we assume people can contribute to the needs of their families on such a low salary?

 

[stevegravy]

Well it seems to the casual observer, since the value of the dollar is like one hundredth of what it was before the American electorate bought into the lie about the need for a national bank. It seems to me if the Bishop really cared about the minimum wage worker, he would be harping more, on the need to increase the value of the currency. Inflation robs everybody especially pensioners. Raising the minimum wage only hurts the young and low skill workforce, of course it is always with the best of intentions. And we already know what the road to hell is paved with.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Where is the moral choice? Do you really believe it is between helping or not helping? If that’s what you think then you have no real understanding of the economic issues involved. Every action has consequences and raising the minimum wage has several. It is surely true that, for the people who keep their jobs, they will now be making more money, but it is equally true that raising the minimum wage also reduces the total number of jobs available. As you raise the cost of labor you increase the likelihood that low wage jobs will be replaced by automation or simply eliminated. The choice is not as simplistic as you suppose, between doing good and not caring. If you make the charitable assumption that most people really do want what is best then there is no basis for supposing that those who oppose raising the minimum wage are selfish, sinful people. They may in fact be mistaken, but that is error, not sin.
Do you pay him enough to live on? You pay him a small amount to help you out but you surely don’t pay him enough that he could live outside of his home, do you? Why not? Why do you assume it is someone else’s responsibility to subsidize his work?
Why should we assume that it is the responsibility of McDonald’s and Bunkey’s Car Wash to pay their employees more than their jobs are worth? You don’t pay your neighbor what he needs so how do you justify passing that responsibility to others? You cannot resolve this problem by focusing solely on the needs of the poor without taking into account how your actions will affect the rest of society.

Raising the minimum wage eliminates jobs so even as some people are better off because their jobs now pay more, others lose jobs entirely because businesses cannot economically justify the higher wage.

The point I’m trying to make, however, really has nothing to do with which of our perceptions of the impact of raising the minimum wage is correct. It is simply this: there is an up side and a down side and determining whether the pluses outweigh the minuses is not a moral consideration, it is an economic one. It is therefore not something the bishops should weigh in on.

Ender

Excellent posts and points.

Again, unless the Bishop also attaches price controls to his wishes (what good is a nine dollar minimum wage if milk is $6/gallon?) as well as making it illegal to be unemployed, he simply wishing for something without any real knowledge of the impact his wishes have.

The real problem is having a service based working class society that cannot do that which is of value to those who need said services.

 

[J_Peterson]

I don’t think it’s been proven that raising the minimum wage will result in job loss. In many cases it resulted in a rise in employment. People having more money to spend will mean that businesses will make more money and will need to create jobs. So even if one industry cuts back on their employees others will create jobs.

Also, why is the minimum wage so low compared to what it used to be? Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage in the 60’s was about $10 (this is what MA is planning on raising it to). If the minimum wage kept up with inflation it would be about $25 today. This tells me that there is something wrong and I think it is that wealth is being hoarded by a small percentage of people. They are relying on the government to take up the slack. The government currently pays about $7 billion for public assistance just for families of fast food workers while McDonalds had a profit of about $5.5 billion in 2012. It simply doesn’t make sense to keep sticking up for the rich while the rest have to make due with the scraps they toss down to the unwashed masses.

This is a good piece on the subject: commonwealmagazine.org/minimal-wages

 

[stinkcat_14]

Well it seems to the casual observer, since the value of the dollar is like one hundredth of what it was before the

I am not sure what your point is, since while prices have gone up, incomes have gone up even more. It is clearly not obvious that incomes would have been higher without the Fed.

realfactbias.blogspot.com/2012/02/no-dollar-did-not-really-lose-95-of-its.html

American electorate bought into the lie about the need for a national bank. It seems to me if the Bishop really cared about the minimum wage worker, he would be harping more, on the need to increase the value of the currency. Inflation robs everybody especially pensioners.

Inflation only hurts those too stupid to hedge themselves against it.

Raising the minimum wage only hurts the young and low skill workforce, of course it is always with the best of intentions. And we already know what the road to hell is paved with.

The effect of the minimum wage is mixed. Some gain, some lose, for the overwhelming majority of workers, even unskilled ones, it is largely irrelevant.

 

[Ender]

I don’t think it’s been proven that raising the minimum wage will result in job loss. In many cases it resulted in a rise in employment.

Let me try this again. You and I have opposite opinions regarding the effect raising the minimum wage would have, but this thread is not really about which of us is right. It is about whether it is a sin to oppose raising the wage. This at least is what the bishop’s remarks imply and this is what I object to.

It seems pretty clear that opposing higher minimum wages cannot be sinful, but if there is no sin involved then why is the bishop involved and how can it be appropriate for him to imply that this is a moral question? One might object by observing that the bishop never said anything about it being a sin to oppose his position but the mere fact that he has publicly taken a position carries that implication with it.

Again, I can demonstrate that this isn’t a moral decision by asking this: should the minimum wage be the same in New York City as it is in, say, rural Mississippi? If you say no then you recognize there are economic considerations involved about which reasonable people could disagree … without committing a sin. If you say yes then you are ignoring the obvious fact that the cost of living in the two places is vastly different and a wage that would suffice in the country would be totally insufficient in the big city.

I am not on this thread to debate the benefits or harm of the minimum wage. I am here solely to oppose the idea that one’s position on the question is a moral choice, and to, gently, make the point that this is debate into which the archbishop should not have interjected his opinion.

Ender

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Where is the moral choice? Do you really believe it is between helping or not helping? If that’s what you think then you have no real understanding of the economic issues involved. Every action has consequences and raising the minimum wage has several. It is surely true that, for the people who keep their jobs, they will now be making more money, but it is equally true that raising the minimum wage also reduces the total number of jobs available. As you raise the cost of labor you increase the likelihood that low wage jobs will be replaced by automation or simply eliminated. The choice is not as simplistic as you suppose, between doing good and not caring. If you make the charitable assumption that most people really do want what is best then there is no basis for supposing that those who oppose raising the minimum wage are selfish, sinful people. They may in fact be mistaken, but that is error, not sin.
Do you pay him enough to live on? You pay him a small amount to help you out but you surely don’t pay him enough that he could live outside of his home, do you? Why not? Why do you assume it is someone else’s responsibility to subsidize his work?
Why should we assume that it is the responsibility of McDonald’s and Bunkey’s Car Wash to pay their employees more than their jobs are worth? You don’t pay your neighbor what he needs so how do you justify passing that responsibility to others? You cannot resolve this problem by focusing solely on the needs of the poor without taking into account how your actions will affect the rest of society.

Raising the minimum wage eliminates jobs so even as some people are better off because their jobs now pay more, others lose jobs entirely because businesses cannot economically justify the higher wage.

The point I’m trying to make, however, really has nothing to do with which of our perceptions of the impact of raising the minimum wage is correct. It is simply this: there is an up side and a down side and determining whether the pluses outweigh the minuses is not a moral consideration, it is an economic one. It is therefore not something the bishops should weigh in on.

Ender

One thing that goes unnoticed, if we force companies to pay more for lower-level/unskilled jobs, why wouldn’t I just quit my stressful job as a computer programmer and just go flip burgers? My current employer would be in a bind as well, because they would have to drastically raise wages in order to keep me? Also, I think that the local/state/federal government has a vested interest in me keeping my skilled job because it should pay several times more, at least in theory, because of the taxes I pay.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Let me try this again. You and I have opposite opinions regarding the effect raising the minimum wage would have, but this thread is not really about which of us is right. It is about whether it is a sin to oppose raising the wage. This at least is what the bishop’s remarks imply and this is what I object to.

It seems pretty clear that opposing higher minimum wages cannot be sinful, but if there is no sin involved then why is the bishop involved and how can it be appropriate for him to imply that this is a moral question? One might object by observing that the bishop never said anything about it being a sin to oppose his position but the mere fact that he has publicly taken a position carries that implication with it.

Again, I can demonstrate that this isn’t a moral decision by asking this: should the minimum wage be the same in New York City as it is in, say, rural Mississippi? If you say no then you recognize there are economic considerations involved about which reasonable people could disagree … without committing a sin. If you say yes then you are ignoring the obvious fact that the cost of living in the two places is vastly different and a wage that would suffice in the country would be totally insufficient in the big city.

I am not on this thread to debate the benefits or harm of the minimum wage. I am here solely to oppose the idea that one’s position on the question is a moral choice, and to, gently, make the point that this is debate into which the archbishop should not have interjected his opinion.

Ender

Thank you for pointing this out, Ender.

I think many people are trying to look at the minimum wage in the context of economics/common sense and balancing it with morals.

The reason why wages are so low in some jobs has many variables, and simply saying we must mandate a “Living Wage” must be looked at in a greater context.

 

[Orogeny]

I wonder what the lowest hourly wage is for those working for the Archdiocese. I tried looking at their web page, but the site seems to be down. I wonder if they have their own self-imposed minimum wage that is higher than the federal minimum wage.

Peace

Tim

 

[J_Peterson]

Let me try this again. You and I have opposite opinions regarding the effect raising the minimum wage would have, but this thread is not really about which of us is right. It is about whether it is a sin to oppose raising the wage. This at least is what the bishop’s remarks imply and this is what I object to.

It seems pretty clear that opposing higher minimum wages cannot be sinful, but if there is no sin involved then why is the bishop involved and how can it be appropriate for him to imply that this is a moral question? One might object by observing that the bishop never said anything about it being a sin to oppose his position but the mere fact that he has publicly taken a position carries that implication with it.

Again, I can demonstrate that this isn’t a moral decision by asking this: should the minimum wage be the same in New York City as it is in, say, rural Mississippi? If you say no then you recognize there are economic considerations involved about which reasonable people could disagree … without committing a sin. If you say yes then you are ignoring the obvious fact that the cost of living in the two places is vastly different and a wage that would suffice in the country would be totally insufficient in the big city.

I am not on this thread to debate the benefits or harm of the minimum wage. I am here solely to oppose the idea that one’s position on the question is a moral choice, and to, gently, make the point that this is debate into which the archbishop should not have interjected his opinion.

Ender

If you are an employer it could very well be sinful. I don’t get bogged down by the specifics of other’s transgressions so I’ll leave it up to the individual to determine their responsibility.

If people are working full time and not able to cover the basic necesities, they are not being paid a living wage and the Bishops have every right to speak out against it. Unless you think that Catholic social teaching is just a recomendation I don’t understand why so many are put off by the Bishop’s statment.

ETA: I agree that the minimum wage should be different depending on the state or local economy. Any federal minimum wage should be on the low end of the spectrum in my opinion.

 

[WildCatholic]

One thing that goes unnoticed, if we force companies to pay more for lower-level/unskilled jobs, why wouldn’t I just quit my stressful job as a computer programmer and just go flip burgers? My current employer would be in a bind as well, because they would have to drastically raise wages in order to keep me? Also, I think that the local/state/federal government has a vested interest in me keeping my skilled job because it should pay several times more, at least in theory, because of the taxes I pay.

Is anyone in their right mind going to quit a job like that. Sure there might be the one slacker who does, but most people who are computer programmers at least tolerate their jobs. Also, in this economy, money is what matters, not stress. People will do anything they can to make money. No one wants to work minimum wage, even if it is less stressful. The economy is just ****** right now and some, like me, have to take these jobs to try and make it (fortunately though i’m young and live at home, but i can’t do that forever and don’t plan to).

That being said, I don’t think the minimum wage should increase, or at least if it does it shouldn’t be more than $10 per hour. I agree that it would cause prices to rise and the people who would get hurt would be those just above minimum wage. Even now, I see people struggling who make just over the minimum wage as well as other payments. Those people in those jobs like low level manufacturing or retail jobs those are the ones who will struggle. Sure those people’s wages will go up, but prices will too and we will end up with the same issues.

Also, while there are certainly career minimum wagers, most people I know who work these jobs are students, just out of school, or are trying to supplement their income and work another full time job or they are retirees. So in effect it would benefit people who don’t really need much money as much. You’d basically have kids who have more money for iPads instead of helping some single mother.

I will say though, that for all these people who say that these people are lazy and need training and education, the onus is on those who educate these people as well as job creators. You don’t want people earning minimum wage and getting government benefits, invest and train them and make them get better pay instead of pocketing the money to buy a fancy car or something like that. I know this economy has hit business owners too, but for those who can spare money, I believe that creating jobs and training people can be a great form of charity. Unfortunately we live in a society where greed is commonplace and people don’t want to take care of each other. Liberals want the government to take care of it, while a lot of conservatives want people to take care of it on their own so they don’t have to do it. Everyone seems to pass the buck rather than do something to help. This is why charity in any form is important. If people don’t want the government in their lives or spending so much on “entitlements” support more charities, and be charitable yourself. Help those who can’t help themselves or else the government will. (Sorry for the rant)

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Is anyone in their right mind going to quit a job like that. Sure there might be the one slacker who does, but most people who are computer programmers at least tolerate their jobs. Also, in this economy, money is what matters, not stress. People will do anything they can to make money. No one wants to work minimum wage, even if it is less stressful. The economy is just ****** right now and some, like me, have to take these jobs to try and make it (fortunately though i’m young and live at home, but i can’t do that forever and don’t plan to).

I think you’re missing the point.

The point is if we raised the minimum wage to a point that it it could look attractive, there are other problems. Most permanent computer programmers I know are salaried and many times called to work extra hours with no over time, so their price per hour goes down. If we forced McDonalds to pay $15 or $20/hr starting out, with full-time/overtime hours, it would start looking attractive to people who may just “tolerate” their current job if their pay wasn’t adjusted accordingly.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I will say though, that for all these people who say that these people are lazy and need training and education, the onus is on those who educate these people as well as job creators. You don’t want people earning minimum wage and getting government benefits, invest and train them and make them get better pay instead of pocketing the money to buy a fancy car or something like that. I know this economy has hit business owners too, but for those who can spare money, I believe that creating jobs and training people can be a great form of charity. Unfortunately we live in a society where greed is commonplace and people don’t want to take care of each other. Liberals want the government to take care of it, while a lot of conservatives want people to take care of it on their own so they don’t have to do it. Everyone seems to pass the buck rather than do something to help. This is why charity in any form is important. If people don’t want the government in their lives or spending so much on “entitlements” support more charities, and be charitable yourself. Help those who can’t help themselves or else the government will. (Sorry for the rant)

Sorry for doing this piecemeal, I agree with this part.

The problem I have had in looking for new work, and work just out of school is that many employers require “experience” but the only way to get experience is to have a similar job. How is one supposed to get job experience if school doesn’t count and no one will hire you because of experience? It is a paradox.

Or it could be that they want someone who is doing almost exactly the same thing now, but aren’t offering enough to get people away from their current employment. I.e. we’ll pay you the same amount (less or not much more in some cases) or no oppurtunity for future career advancement.

Then they turn around and claim that there is a “talent shortage”

 

[freeRadical]

The concern I have here is a lot of folks seem to overlook that minimum wage laws price out young and urban workers.

There should be exemptions to minimum wage laws if they are indeed necessary.

Also, higher minimum wage could mean less jobs for some and longer hours for others.

Milton Friedman used to say that the minimum wage law was the most anti-negro law on the books.

 

[shockerfan]

I don’t think it’s been proven that raising the minimum wage will result in job loss. In many cases it resulted in a rise in employment. People having more money to spend will mean that businesses will make more money and will need to create jobs. So even if one industry cuts back on their employees others will create jobs.

I’m curious about this portion of your post.

Just after Sea-Tac (Seattle Tacoma) voted to raise the minimum wage, I saw a story about a number of businesses saying how they would either reduce their workforce (layoffs) or in one case not go through with a planned expansion. So some people will have more money to spend and others will have zero.

I really don’t see how an increase in minimum wage impacts employment positively. If you are a business, are you more likely to hire people or layoff people if your labor costs increase?

 

[shockerfan]

I think you’re missing the point.

The point is if we raised the minimum wage to a point that it it could look attractive, there are other problems. Most permanent computer programmers I know are salaried and many times called to work extra hours with no over time, so their price per hour goes down. If we forced McDonalds to pay $15 or $20/hr starting out, with full-time/overtime hours, it would start looking attractive to people who may just “tolerate” their current job if their pay wasn’t adjusted accordingly.

I think you make an important point. Another example, in many areas apprentice electricians make about $13 per hour, which is above minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes to $15 per hour, then that apprentice has a choice: flip burgers in an air-conditioned building, OR, work outside in either a very hot or very cold, labor intensive job.

 

[Monica02]

I would like to see the bishops speak to the work visa issue that allows companies to recruit overseas for labor. Many companies around here have whole floors and departments full of H1B Indians while American citizens remain unemployed or are let go to bring an H1B Indian over.

Is there only concern for minimum wage workers?

 

[Ender]

If people are working full time and not able to cover the basic necesities, they are not being paid a living wage and the Bishops have every right to speak out against it.

There is nothing in church teaching that requires every employer to pay “living wages”. If a teenager and a father of four are both doing the same job where is the argument that they should be paid differently? It is the nature of the job that determines the proper wage, not the needs of person doing it. Let’s also be clear that the bishop did not come out in favor of “living wages”. He advocated increasing the minimum wage, but no one believes this will result in living wages for all even if it increased.

Unless you think that Catholic social teaching is just a recomendation I don’t understand why so many are put off by the Bishop’s statment.

Catholic social teaching requires us to show concern for the poor and to work to ease their hardships. It does not require us to support higher minimum wages, and because it doesn’t I oppose the bishop’s comments that imply we are morally obligated to accept his political solutions.

ETA: I agree that the minimum wage should be different depending on the state or local economy. Any federal minimum wage should be on the low end of the spectrum in my opinion.

By accepting this point you admit the obvious: setting the minimum wage is determined by economic considerations, but by accepting this you necessarily accept that people will come to different conclusions about what wage is appropriate. You might argue that I am economically illiterate and where I set the wage is totally wrong, but being wrong is not a sin. This is the problem with the bishop’s statement: he implies that this is a moral choice and my opposition to his position is not merely incorrect but immoral. That absolutely is not true.

Ender

 

[J_Peterson]

I’m curious about this portion of your post.

Just after Sea-Tac (Seattle Tacoma) voted to raise the minimum wage, I saw a story about a number of businesses saying how they would either reduce their workforce (layoffs) or in one case not go through with a planned expansion. So some people will have more money to spend and others will have zero.

I really don’t see how an increase in minimum wage impacts employment positively. If you are a business, are you more likely to hire people or layoff people if your labor costs increase?

Here is an article that talks about it. It’s a lefty news source but he cites the academic papers.

americanprogressaction.org/issues/labor/news/2012/06/20/11749/the-facts-on-raising-the-minimum-wage-when-unemployment-is-high-2/

 

[stinkcat_14]

Here is an article that talks about it. It’s a lefty news source but he cites the academic papers.

americanprogressaction.org/issues/labor/news/2012/06/20/11749/the-facts-on-raising-the-minimum-wage-when-unemployment-is-high-2/

Part of the problem is that the minimum wage is so low that almost nobody works for the minimum wage. So it is not surprising that when it is raised there are few economic effects to be found. It is a political proposal that brings more heat than light from both sides of the political spectrum.