Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[HappyCatholic01]

I said nothing about equal. Calling a job unskilled is a curious thing to do, as most jobs I’m aware of require a variety of skills to perform them.

Otherwise this isn’t about training whether available or not. It’s about setting the minimum wage at an appropriate level. So far I’ve not heard a sensible reason not to.

ATB

There have been numerous reasons why Catholics on here believe it is a good idea.

Rather than claim otherwise, or just clog the board with more “I think we should raise it” posts, can you go through and explain which of those you disagree with and why? Otherwise, it is making a case for something that has already been countered, and drags out the topic.

 

[Ender]

On more than one occasion, our wise Catholic bishops have instructed us that the minimum wage should be raised according to Catholic moral principles because of the obligation of employers to pay a living wage.

Employers are under no obligation to pay a living wage. That is not any part of church doctrine nor did Bishop Wenski call for it. He called for raising the minimum wage, not the payment of living wages.

It is wrong for Catholics to dissent from the authentic Catholic moral teaching …

True, it is wrong for Catholics to dissent from authentic moral teaching.

… on raising the minimum wage as promulgated by the Catholic bishops in the USA.

Whatever the Catholic bishops in the US are promulgating about the minimum wage is not church teaching, it is nothing more than their personal opinion about how to solve a social problem. A problem that is in fact the responsibility of the laity to address.

I urge everyone to listen to the bishops and to reread Catholic teaching on this issue.

Cite what you believe to be the relevant teaching on this subject. Where does the church hold forth on the minimum wage?

Ender

 

[catholictiger]

I’ll read what he has to say later but minimum wage is already way to high. Min Wage can be a very dangerous thing. First it can cause a raise in unemployment if a company has to pay more money to its employees than they will be less willing to pay more workers. A very unskilled worker will have a more difficult time finding work. The Government is putting a floor in that could be in many cases above the equilibrium of the market, because of this there will be companies who will hire less because they can’t afford or they aren’t willing to hire more people.

now I think some minimum wage is good because there is a wage that is bellow the standard of living. It puts at risk someone’s common good when they are working but not making enough to live. The problem is this is a largely sliding scale and varies between people. I think trying to control the wage market to get people money is to dangerous it is better to provide safety nets so that if people can’t get work they can still get food and shelter. Minimum wage should only be used if it is clear that the market will not provide the people the necessary resources to live.

 

[Ender]

I mean this humbly and honestly. I love our Pope Francis. But the US counsel of Bishops does seem to focus heavily on pop-politics and economics. To me picking this politicians ideas or that politicians ideas seems like a lack of something. There are a great deal of moral issues we could be discussing that the leadership could address on its own, such as dealing with preventable patient deaths in hospitals. To me, it seems like relying on politicians ideas shows a lack of real leadership. It just seems like the easy way out, but that’s not the road pope Francis urges us to take… The voters booth is just too easy of a way out for me.

Both the laity and the clergy have their roles to play and it is the role of the laity, applying the principles the church has set out, to resolve social problems. That is not the role of the clergy. I agree with you that focusing on political issues does seem to be taking the easier road. There is surely less push back from the pews in calling on congress to increase the minimum wage than by calling for those in the pews to accept church teaching on contraception. I do not look to the bishops (or, especially, the USCCB) for guidance on political issues, but I don’t know where else to look for a solution to the problem that Catholics are indistinguishable from non-Catholics on moral issues such as abortion, homosexuality, and contraception. There are plenty of dragons at home; the bishops have no need to go off after windmills.

Ender

 

[catholictiger]

Our good Catholic bishops have the authority to teach, rule and sanctify. Since they are successors of the apostles, Catholics have a grave duty and obligation to pay attention to their decrees and to follow their excellent advice. On more than one occasion, our wise Catholic bishops have instructed us that the minimum wage should be raised according to Catholic moral principles because of the obligation of employers to pay a living wage. It is wrong for Catholics to dissent from the authentic Catholic moral teaching on raising the minimum wage as promulgated by the Catholic bishops in the USA. I urge everyone to listen to the bishops and to reread Catholic teaching on this issue.

you are making an incorrect connection here. One bishop by himself doesn’t speak authoritatively for all Catholics. Yes we should listen to his advice and take it into consideration but in no way are we obligated to believe what he says and if we disagree we are in no way dissenting with authentic Catholic moral teaching. Now I haven’t done a study on just wage and the standard of living but I think the min wage is way to high right now, and it is to destructive to the market. Man yes deserves a just wage but this is a very broad statement and isn’t specific at all. What is a just wage for you may not necessarily be one for me. I believe that a just wage is that with this wage you are able to survive even if you have to seek outside help.

 

[Ridgerunner]

RR, all of your question are besides the point. It’s about fair wages for work. You seem to want to allow an entity that is not human to deside. We’ve not done this as a nation so far.

Further it is not a moral crusade, it is a common sense approach to an obvious problem. You are seeing people from all walks of life weighing in with their support for raising the wage.

It’s time to see this done.

The standard is “fairness” then?

What’s a “fair wage” for the following:

-a Walmart greeter?
-a bricklayer?
-a lawyer?
-a firewood cutter
-a home health housekeeper?
-a neurosurgeon?
-a convenience store donut baker?
-The CEO of a Fortune 100 company?

What non-human do you think I want to decide? What human do you want to decide what’s 'fair", and what criteria do you want that person to use, if any?

 

[shockerfan]

The standard is “fairness” then?

What’s a “fair wage” for the following:

-a Walmart greeter?
-a bricklayer?
-a lawyer?
-a firewood cutter
-a home health housekeeper?
-a neurosurgeon?
-a convenience store donut baker?
-The CEO of a Fortune 100 company?

What non-human do you think I want to decide? What human do you want to decide what’s 'fair", and what criteria do you want that person to use, if any?

good questions!!! I eagerly await answers.

 

[catholictiger]

The standard is “fairness” then?

What’s a “fair wage” for the following:

-a Walmart greeter?
-a bricklayer?
-a lawyer?
-a firewood cutter
-a home health housekeeper?
-a neurosurgeon?
-a convenience store donut baker?
-The CEO of a Fortune 100 company?

What non-human do you think I want to decide? What human do you want to decide what’s 'fair", and what criteria do you want that person to use, if any?

I think the market can go a lot into deciding what a just wage is. Would it be just or fair if a neurosurgeon got paid the same wage as a walmart greeter? no. I would say the only time the market can’t determine what the just wage is when that market wage wouldn’t allow a person to survive on what they earn. Let’s say a Walmart greeter with what he gets can only buy 6 meals a week and doesn’t have enough to have a place to live. This probably wouldn’t be just.

some questions that come up in my mind is:

should every job give someone enough to survive or are there some jobs that don’t require this?

should a “living wage” be enough for a person to live independently or should safety net programs be considered when determining a just wage?

how much should the minimum’s affect on unemployment go into this discussion?

would it be legitament to pay someone under a living wage if you have knowledge that the person has other means of income or is a dependent of someone? (for example should it be a requirement to pay a teen who is working a summer job a living wage)

others may come up but this will get you started.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Nor have you told is what a"sensible level" is.I thought as Catholics we had a personal responsibility to help the poor.Doesn’t seem to me we fulfill that responsibility by forcing others to do it for us.

You’ve made a slip-up. This is your argument against government sponsored assistance to the needy. We are discussing raising the minimum wage here.

ATB

 

[Ender]

I would say the only time the market can’t determine what the just wage is when that market wage wouldn’t allow a person to survive on what they earn. Let’s say a Walmart greeter with what he gets can only buy 6 meals a week and doesn’t have enough to have a place to live. This probably wouldn’t be just.

The justness of a wage is not determined by the needs of the employee. It is not immediately obvious how ones needs effects the value of ones work.

should every job give someone enough to survive or are there some jobs that don’t require this?

It is simply irrational to believe that a job should pay a wage based on the perceived needs of the worker rather than based on the value of the work being performed.

would it be legitimate to pay someone under a living wage…

Yes. There are surely cases where the wages paid are inappropriate and ought in fact be higher but that does not mean that everyone should receive a living wage. Can anyone seriously argue that e.g. a father of six should be able to walk into a McDonald’s and expect to be paid a salary sufficient for him and his family? Would you like to explain to the teenager working the fry basket next to him why he is paid only a fraction as much for doing the same job? The concept that pay should be determined by need rather than the value of the work borders on lunacy. It would be easier to create a perpetual motion machine than create an economic system based on that principle.

Ender

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I think when people speak of “unskilled” jobs, they are referring to jobs that require relatively little training to perform - such as flipping burgers, making sandwiches at subway or perhaps being a maid at a hotel. A plumber, on the other hand, would be a skilled job because it takes a great deal of training, apprenticeship, etc. to become one. Another skilled job might be a computer programmer or even a brain surgeon! Hope this helps, Mickey.

Ishii

Thanks for jumping in ishii. This is exactly what I’m talking about.

It doesn’t take much training to make food at McDonalds. Therefore, the pool of people who are able (and willing) to do the job is large.

 

[catholictiger]

The justness of a wage is not determined by the needs of the employee. It is not immediately obvious how ones needs effects the value of ones work.

if market forces drive wages then the needs of the workers and the willingness of the employer to meet those needs will determine it. Or another way to put it, a person has a demand for a certain wage, for example if someone has a doctorate from a prestigious university he may have a demand for X amount of money from a university teaching position or something similar. But let’s say that X is way to high and no university will meet his demands. Hopefully he is willing to receive less pay then he demands to meet the market equilibrium. Most of the time the market equilibrium will determine what is the just or fair wage and this is the case in our culture. There is the issue of law wage jobs that could get into issues of this wage will actually make it more difficult for this person to live. This is a complex issue but sometimes the market will not provide a just wage that is when a ruling entity should step in and make sure the just wage is met by the employers.

this discussion should be centered around this low wage jobs, things like working a McDs, a factory worker, a grocery store worker.

The question becomes if someone works a job that doesn’t allow them to meet the standard of living would this wage be considered just or should a ruling entity step in and make sure that it is met.

It is simply irrational to believe that a job should pay a wage based on the perceived needs of the worker rather than based on the value of the work being performed.

yes but there are the issues I explained above.

Yes. There are surely cases where the wages paid are inappropriate and ought in fact be higher but that does not mean that everyone should receive a living wage. Can anyone seriously argue that e.g. a father of six should be able to walk into a McDonald’s and expect to be paid a salary sufficient for him and his family? Would you like to explain to the teenager working the fry basket next to him why he is paid only a fraction as much for doing the same job? The concept that pay should be determined by need rather than the value of the work borders on lunacy. It would be easier to create a perpetual motion machine than create an economic system based on that principle.

Ender

I agree but there are those instances when someone may not be able to live if they don’t have a wage of standard living. It could be possible that a very unskilled worker isn’t skilled enough to have a job that would allow him to provide for himself, what in this case be just for this man and what, in light of CSD (catholic social doctrine, I will use this abbreviation from now on), does the Church teach is due this man in justice.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

The justness of a wage is not determined by the needs of the employee. It is not immediately obvious how ones needs effects the value of ones work.
It is simply irrational to believe that a job should pay a wage based on the perceived needs of the worker rather than based on the value of the work being performed.
Yes. There are surely cases where the wages paid are inappropriate and ought in fact be higher but that does not mean that everyone should receive a living wage. Can anyone seriously argue that e.g. a father of six should be able to walk into a McDonald’s and expect to be paid a salary sufficient for him and his family? Would you like to explain to the teenager working the fry basket next to him why he is paid only a fraction as much for doing the same job? The concept that pay should be determined by need rather than the value of the work borders on lunacy. It would be easier to create a perpetual motion machine than create an economic system based on that principle.

Ender

Based on Ender’s response…

Again, I’ll ask of those who want to raise the minimum wage, are we going to discriminate based on age, sex and family status?

What about students or people just looking for extra income? They are willing to work for less than a “living wage” because their needs are met in other ways. Do we say they can’t find additional work if they are willing? If we raise the minimum wage, some of these people may be let go or have reduced hours. Surely, this is not a good thing, either.

I thought discrimination of this type was illegal and against Church teaching? I also thought equal pay for equal work is part of church teaching as well?

 

[catholictiger]

Based on Ender’s response…

Again, I’ll ask of those who want to raise the minimum wage, are we going to discriminate based on age, sex and family status?

What about students or people just looking for extra income? They are willing to work for less than a “living wage” because their needs are met in other ways. Do we say they can’t find additional work if they are willing? If we raise the minimum wage, some of these people may be let go or have reduced hours. Surely, this is not a good thing, either.

I thought discrimination of this type was illegal and against Church teaching? I also thought equal pay for equal work is part of church teaching as well?

as far as discrimination you can justly discriminate. For example can hooters (as much as I hate this place and how morally questionable the place is) discriminate towards “attractiveness” of their wait staff or should they be required to hire someone who is “ugly”

can a university only hire people with degrees? well yes

there are plenty of instances where you can justly discriminate

but also issues of unjust discrimination

for example a factory doesn’t hire minority workers because they are racist. This would be unjust discrimination you are not justly giving a chance to all who can work the job to work it.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

this discussion should be centered around this low wage jobs, things like working a McDs, a factory worker, a grocery store worker.

The question becomes if someone works a job that doesn’t allow them to meet the standard of living would this wage be considered just or should a ruling entity step in and make sure that it is met.

Again, someone posted in one of these threads that only 15% of those over 25 are earning minimum wage. This number is high because this counts people who may be retired, but looking for a reason to get out of the house.

Are you saying that just because a really small percentage of people may have issues making ends meet on the minimum wage, that we should destroy the jobs for others who are perfectly content with the pay? I’m not saying we should discard that small percentage, but we have to consider the bigger picture and it’s not as simple as saying “raise the minimum wage”

 

[catholictiger]

Again, someone posted in one of these threads that only 15% of those over 25 are earning minimum wage. This number is high because this counts people who may be retired, but looking for a reason to get out of the house.

Are you saying that just because a really small percentage of people may have issues making ends meet on the minimum wage, that we should destroy the jobs for others who are perfectly content with the pay? I’m not saying we should discard that small percentage, but we have to consider the bigger picture and it’s not as simple as saying “raise the minimum wage”

I’m saying if there is are people in our society who for what ever reason can’t meet the standard of living, meaning they can’t afford basic necessities of life (food, water, shelter, etc.) something should be done to fix this situation. It isn’t necessarily raise the minimum wage.

Remember the Catholic Church teaches that if one person isn’t meeting his own common good than the common good of all is lost. If one person is left on the street and no-one is willing to help than something must change.

 

[Ender]

I agree but there are those instances when someone may not be able to live if they don’t have a wage of standard living. It could be possible that a very unskilled worker isn’t skilled enough to have a job that would allow him to provide for himself, what in this case be just for this man and what, in light of CSD (catholic social doctrine, I will use this abbreviation from now on), does the Church teach is due this man in justice.

Yes, well this is the question: what does the Church teach? From the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church:250.In order to protect this relationship between family and work, an element that must be appreciated and safeguarded is that of a family wage, a wage sufficient to maintain a family and allow it to live decently. …
That seems to imply that businesses must pay a living wage, but there is more:… There can be several different ways to make a family wage a concrete reality.** Various forms of important social provisions help to bring it about**, for example, family subsidies and other contributions for dependent family members…
This puts the burden of resolving social problems where it belongs, not on the employer but on the government. It is unfortunate that the term “living wage” is used since that falsely implies that the employer - who is the only one paying a wage - is responsible for the needs of his employee when it is in fact the whole of society which has that duty.

It is also worth nothing that the church is mindful of the problem of setting wages too high: For everyone knows that an excessive lowering of wages,** or their increase beyond due measure, **causes unemployment. This evil, indeed, especially as we see it prolonged and injuring so many during the years of Our Pontificate, has plunged workers into misery and temptations, ruined the prosperity of nations, and put in jeopardy the public order, peace, and tranquillity of the whole world. Hence it is contrary to social justice when, for the sake of personal gain and without regard for the common good, wages and salaries are excessively lowered or raised; (Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, #74)
Ender

 

[TEPO]

CSD (catholic social doctrine, I will use this abbreviation from now on), does the Church teach is due this man in justice.

Ha, might as well right…

No, really “Doctrine” is considered as the written or handed down Word of God.

CST I think is more like an assumed or proposed doctrine. Catholics will naturally all agree that these teachings stem from Doctrines or Statements, and will agree with them, but cannot explain which path achieves these goals -which is why it is different.

 

[Tomdstone]

The justness of a wage is not determined by the needs of the employee. It is not immediately obvious how ones needs effects the value of ones work.
It is simply irrational to believe that a job should pay a wage based on the perceived needs of the worker rather than based on the value of the work being performed.
Yes. There are surely cases where the wages paid are inappropriate and ought in fact be higher but that does not mean that everyone should receive a living wage. Can anyone seriously argue that e.g. a father of six should be able to walk into a McDonald’s and expect to be paid a salary sufficient for him and his family? Would you like to explain to the teenager working the fry basket next to him why he is paid only a fraction as much for doing the same job? The concept that pay should be determined by need rather than the value of the work borders on lunacy. It would be easier to create a perpetual motion machine than create an economic system based on that principle.

Ender

What you are saying appears to be contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church which teaches that " the principle of a living wage is integral to our understanding of human work. Wages must be adequate for workers to provide for themselves and their families in dignity."
old.usccb.org/sdwp/national/minwage206.shtml

 

[Tomdstone]

you are making an incorrect connection here. One bishop by himself doesn’t speak authoritatively for all Catholics. Yes we should listen to his advice and take it into consideration but in no way are we obligated to believe what he says and if we disagree we are in no way dissenting with authentic Catholic moral teaching.

You are making a serious error is in saying that it has been only one bishop who has been calling for a raise in the minimum wage. For example, the position of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is:
“Work has a special place in Catholic social thought: work is more than just a job; it is a reflection of our human dignity, and a way to contribute to the common good. Most importantly, it is the ordinary way people meet their material needs and community obligations. In Catholic teaching, the principle of a living wage is integral to our understanding of human work. Wages must be adequate for workers to provide for themselves and their families in dignity. Although the minimum wage is not a living wage, the Catholic bishops have supported increasing the minimum wage over the decades. The minimum wage needs to be raised to help restore its purchasing power, not just for the goods and services one can buy but for the self-esteem and self-worth it affords the worker. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops supports legislation that would increase the minimum wage and is urging Congress to raise the minimum wage in a timely and meaningful way.”
So,specifically, they say: " In Catholic teaching, the principle of a living wage is integral to our understanding of human work."
This is the teaching of the Catholic Church, not just of one bishop.
old.usccb.org/sdwp/national/minwage206.shtml