Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

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Tomdstone said:
Switzerland is voting on giving every legal resident almost $3000 per month, whether they are working or not. You only have to be alive to collect your monthly income of $2800.
rt.com/business/swiss-vote-universal-wage-420/
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If that works for the Swiss, why not? If we can’t take any of it 6 feet under, what’s the point of some living in excess while others live in deprivation? As long as the sharing is mutually agreed upon and not forced, more power to any society that chooses to spread the wealth.
 
seekerz said:
If that works for the Swiss, why not? If we can’t take any of it 6 feet under, what’s the point of some living in excess while others live in deprivation? As long as the sharing is mutually agreed upon and not forced, more power to any society that chooses to spread the wealth.
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Exactly how do you think the govt of Switzerland obtains the money to dole out to all citizens?
 
Sometimes I wish they’d just pass it so we could all discuss how much good it actually ends up doing. Elimination of jobs, cutting of hours, and of course all those people now above minimum wage who will then become minimum wage employees. The reality is both parties in America embraced globalism and it’s come back to bite the American worker on the backside like a Great White Shark.
 
In reading and hearing what all the commentators say about it, it’s entirely possible that raising it will harm a few and benefit none. Alternatively, it might benefit a few and harm a few.

But regardless, clerics who take positions on it don’t know one way or the other. One sometimes wishes they would refrain from commenting on political minutiae about which they likely know little, and perhaps preserve their credibility when it comes to serious, and very clear, moral issues.
 
Ridgerunner said:
In reading and hearing what all the commentators say about it, it’s entirely possible that raising it will harm a few and benefit none. Alternatively, it might benefit a few and harm a few.

But regardless, clerics who take positions on it don’t know one way or the other. One sometimes wishes they would refrain from commenting on political minutiae about which they likely know little, and perhaps preserve their credibility when it comes to serious, and very clear, moral issues.
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Just remuneration is a clear moral issue; read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos etc
 
zz912 said:
Exactly how do you think the govt of Switzerland obtains the money to dole out to all citizens?
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The estimate is that it will cost less than one percent of the Swiss federal budget. Although the cost is small, the benefit will be quite large.
 
Tomdstone said:
The estimate is that it will cost less than one percent of the Swiss federal budget. Although the cost is small, the benefit will be quite large.
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Ha. We’ll see how long that lasts when people stop working and paying taxes. Socialism doesn’t work- never has. Mainly because if there is no incentive to work, then people stop working.

Ishii
 
Tomdstone said:
Switzerland is voting on giving every legal resident almost $3000 per month, whether they are working or not. You only have to be alive to collect your monthly income of $2800.
rt.com/business/swiss-vote-universal-wage-420/
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Sounds like a great idea.

But to put it in context, though, we need to look at a few things with Switzerland:

First of all, Switzerland has no legal minimum wage (letting the topic be a matter of negotiation between employer and employee). Yet the average Swiss salary is around CHF 6,000 per month (USD 6700 per month). And, guess what: the unemployment rate for Switzerland was 2.9% in 2012…compare that to a U-6 unemployment rate of 14.4% in the US in 2012.

Secondly, the Swiss tightly control immigration. If you’re wealthy and are willing / able to contribute hundreds of thousands of francs to their economy, you’re more than welcome. Otherwise, you’d better have a job there before going. Otherwise, not so much. They don’t even want refugees from EU countries (Switzerland is not an EU country, remember), much less from outside the EU. Therefore, we don’t see a bunch of Swiss displaced by foreigners at work.

Third, it appears that their social insurance is actually set up to be insurance. I’m no expert (so if we have any Swiss people reading this, please tell me where I’m wrong), but it appears that you pay into an account that is actually yours. A lot different than how social security is run here.

So this “minimum income” thing proposed in Switzerland sounds almost like some equivalent to the Alaska Permanent Fund (where each resident of Alaska is guaranteed a portion of the revenue gained from their oil reserves) rather than the redistributive social welfare that we have in this country (take from one and give to another).

There is a lot we can learn from the Swiss. And if our country had 2.9% unemployment with an average salary of USD 6,700 per month…set by the agreement between employer and employee rather than by government mandate, then the situation in this country would be a whole lot different as well.
 
Tomdstone said:
The estimate is that it will cost less than one percent of the Swiss federal budget. Although the cost is small, the benefit will be quite large.
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Not a chance that is correct.

8,000,000 citizens of Switzerland.
3,000 per month per citizen
12 months in a year

288 Billion per year expenditure.

Their current budget is around 65 billion.

And let’s work through the fairy dust and unicorn magic about this idea. They will take on average $3,000/per person in taxes per month, to be able to “give” this money back to the citizens. (Minus their mafioso-style cut, which really means they will be taxed $6,000 per month). Sounds like a winning plan!

(This plan signifies the complete lack of understanding that most on the left have about govt money. They don’t comprehend HOW the govt gets that money. They think either the govt has a big stash somewhere, or “makes” or 'earns" this money separately from other magical sources).
 
seekerz said:
By taxation, most likely. So what? The citizens are VOTING on the issue, no?
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Yes, many more Pauls are voting to take money from Peter’s. They are using govt force to confiscate the private property of others and give it to them. That is NOT voluntary for Peter.
 
zz912 said:
Yes, many more Pauls are voting to take money from Peter’s. They are using govt force to confiscate the private property of others and give it to them. That is NOT voluntary for Peter.
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The failure of democracy, or any quasi-democratic system. Once a majority learn they can sit at home and vote themselves money those that work, the country will collapse. We are almost there.
 
zz912 said:
Not a chance that is correct.

8,000,000 citizens of Switzerland.
3,000 per month per citizen
12 months in a year

288 Billion per year expenditure.

Their current budget is around 65 billion.

And let’s work through the fairy dust and unicorn magic about this idea. They will take on average $3,000/per person in taxes per month, to be able to “give” this money back to the citizens. (Minus their mafioso-style cut, which really means they will be taxed $6,000 per month). Sounds like a winning plan!

(This plan signifies the complete lack of understanding that most on the left have about govt money. They don’t comprehend HOW the govt gets that money. They think either the govt has a big stash somewhere, or “makes” or 'earns" this money separately from other magical sources).
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There’s a commandment that says we shall not envy our neighbor’s goods. Nowhere does it infer that when one neighbor grows wealthier than the other neighbors we have the right to organize the collective envy of the neighborhood and make plans to plunder his home. But it goes still further than that. Instead of simply plundering the richest neighbor’s home, the neighbors indulge their penchant for lavish spending by borrowing from the bank and making the rich neighbor responsible for repaying the loan. What kind of homeowners association is that!

Government in America is becoming legalized, organized thuggery.
 
zz912 said:
Yes, many more Pauls are voting to take money from Peter’s. They are using govt force to confiscate the private property of others and give it to them. That is NOT voluntary for Peter.
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Think of all the taxes, fees etc that you are mandated to pay in the course of normal life - then tell me how many of them you (or your forefathers) actually had a chance to vote on?
 
seekerz said:
Think of all the taxes, fees etc that you are mandated to pay in the course of normal life - then tell me how many of them you (or your forefathers) actually had a chance to vote on?
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Irrelevant to our discussion. You predicated that this action was moral because it was voluntary. I pointed out that it is NOT volutary. Now you are moving the goal posts.
 
zz912 said:
Not a chance that is correct.

8,000,000 citizens of Switzerland.
3,000 per month per citizen
12 months in a year

288 Billion per year expenditure.

Their current budget is around 65 billion.

And let’s work through the fairy dust and unicorn magic about this idea. They will take on average $3,000/per person in taxes per month, to be able to “give” this money back to the citizens. (Minus their mafioso-style cut, which really means they will be taxed $6,000 per month). Sounds like a winning plan!

(This plan signifies the complete lack of understanding that most on the left have about govt money. They don’t comprehend HOW the govt gets that money. They think either the govt has a big stash somewhere, or “makes” or 'earns" this money separately from other magical sources).
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The fallacy in your argument is the assumption that everyone in Switzerland will get the money. I believe that it is some kind of a floor, so that if your income is over $2800, you don’t collect. However, if your income is $1000, then you will be brought up to the $2800 level, The financial experts in Switzerland have figured it out and it will cost less than 1% of the budget to bring everyone up to the level of $2800 per month.
 
zz912 said:
Irrelevant to our discussion. You predicated that this action was moral because it was voluntary. I pointed out that it is NOT volutary. Now you are moving the goal posts.
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How is it not voluntary if people are voting on the matter? What does a vote mean if not an expression of the people’s will? We pay far more stuff that only politicians get to vote on, so if Swedes get to vote on their taxes more power to them.

Besides, if I have to believe the figures I see quoted here, there are very few unemployed in Sweden so their brand of socialism is at least not the great disincentive to work that it’s being made out to be.
 
pnewton said:
:confused: We vote on taxes? I missed that on the ballot.
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For sure when it comes to federal taxes.

In some states, like mine, all tax increases have to be voted on by the public. Almost never do tax increases pass. The one exception is local school levies. Since I think public schools are huge wasters of money, I always vote against them. To my surprise, the last one failed.

Interestingly, TIF taxes almost always pass. I don’t know why, but suspect it’s because people know exactly what improvements they’re voting to finance, and can see them go in if the tax passes. Pass a TIF tax, and the next year you have a new interchange, utility extensions, outer roads, intersections, etc. You can actually see what you’re paying for, and not someday or other and somewhere or other, but right here and right now.

Others might have a different view.
 
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