Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[seekerz]

Here is a philosophical thought for you seeker. Which is more unreasonable, a bishop who assumes the role of a citizen, or a layman who assumes the role of the Pope?

Isn’t it rather glaring hypocritical to criticize a bishop for overstepping* his* bounds?

Since the bishop is also a citizen, your philosophical question answers itself.

Besides, all one has to do is pick up a Bible to be weighed down with God’s concern for the poor and their just treatment…In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

 

[ishii]

Here is a philosophical thought for you seeker. Which is more unreasonable, a bishop who assumes the role of a citizen, or a layman who assumes the role of the Pope?

Isn’t it rather glaring hypocritical to criticize a bishop for overstepping* his* bounds?

So critiquing a Pope’s or bishops economic analysis is the same as assuming the role of Pope?

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

Since the bishop is also a citizen, your philosophical question answers itself.

Besides, all one has to do is pick up a Bible to be weighed down with God’s concern for the poor and their just treatment…In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

Where is Scripture does it say we fullfill our personal obligation to help the poor by forcing businesses to pay higher wages?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Where is Scripture does it say we fullfill our personal obligation to help the poor by forcing businesses to pay higher wages?

Who here has claimed that we are fulfilling our personal obligation to the poor by supporting an increase in the minimum wage? Of course, the answer is nobody. The archbishop of course, said nothing of the sort, so we can hardly fault him on any aspect of morality or church teaching.

There is nothing in Scripture that says we cannot choose to use laws to help one group versus another. We can argue whether such laws are prudent, but Scripture clearly does not forbid them.

 

[seekerz]

Where is Scripture does it say we fullfill our personal obligation to help the poor by forcing businesses to pay higher wages?

Are we Sola Scriptura now? Do we expect a blueprint or handbook on the exact steps involved in loving God and neighbor?

 

[estesbob]

Are we Sola Scriptura now? Do we expect a blueprint or handbook on the exact steps involved in loving God and neighbor?

I was responding to stinkcat who said:

Besides, all one has to do is pick up a Bible to be weighed down with God’s concern for the poor and their just treatment…In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

 

[estesbob]

Who here has claimed that we are fulfilling our personal obligation to the poor by supporting an increase in the minimum wage? Of course, the answer is nobody. The archbishop of course, said nothing of the sort, so we can hardly fault him on any aspect of morality or church teaching.

There is nothing in Scripture that says we cannot choose to use laws to help one group versus another. We can argue whether such laws are prudent, but Scripture clearly does not forbid them.

you said

Besides, all one has to do is pick up a Bible to be weighed down with God’s concern for the poor and their just treatment…In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

Nobody said scripture forbid them. you are the one who bought scripture into the discussion.

 

[stinkcat_14]

you said

Nobody said scripture forbid them. you are the one who bought scripture into the discussion.

Can you please tell where I said this? I never said anything close to that. You need to get your facts straight before making claims.

Besides, all one has to do is pick up a Bible to be weighed down with God’s concern for the poor and their just treatment…In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

 

[seekerz]

I was responding to stinkcat who said:

You have it wrong my friend, that was my post.

My point is simply that Scripture tells us what God expects of us, it doesn’t give us a step-by-step tutorial on how to achieve it. I also believes it makes it clear that God is not impressed by intentions that never get acted on, whether that is because we waste time bickering rather than doing or because we are simply too complacent.

Read the book referenced in my signature, by Thomas Merton. He has some interesting thoughts on our obligations to each other.

 

[estesbob]

You have it wrong my friend, that was my post.

My point is simply that Scripture tells us what God expects of us, it doesn’t give us a step-by-step tutorial on how to achieve it. I also believes it makes it clear that God is not impressed by intentions that never get acted on, whether that is because we waste time bickering rather than doing or because we are simply too complacent.

Read the book referenced in my signature, by Thomas Merton. He has some interesting thoughts on our obligations to each other.

So you think the CIA assassinated Merton ?

 

[seekerz]

So you think the CIA assassinated Merton ?

What??

 

[estesbob]

What??

Are you familiar with how he died? Given his anti-war stance there was a lot of speculation that he was assassinated. I don’t believe it but it was a bizarre end to a fascinating life.

 

[Ender]

Here is a philosophical thought for you seeker. Which is more unreasonable, a bishop who assumes the role of a citizen, or a layman who assumes the role of the Pope?

Both are wrong, but that’s the point: *both *are wrong.

Isn’t it rather glaring hypocritical to criticize a bishop for overstepping* his* bounds?

Why is that? Surely if a bishop oversteps his bounds one is justified in pointing it out.

Ender

 

[stinkcat_14]

Both are wrong, but that’s the point: *both *are wrong.
Why is that? Surely if a bishop oversteps his bounds one is justified in pointing it out.

Ender

Where is it in Church teaching that a bishop cannot express an opinion on the minimum wage?

 

[Ender]

In what dimension of the universe is the just wage not a moral issue?

There are two problems with this:

• The question is not whether a worker should be paid a just wage but whether the minimum wage should be raised. That you believe it is unjust not to raise the minimum wage is an opinion you are entitled to hold but it certainly doesn’t mean your opinion is valid. It is an assertion, not a fact. More to the point, you have significantly changed the topic.
• “Moral issue” is way too vague. If you say we have a moral obligation to ensure just wages, that would be I think a proper objective, but we are not arguing about the objective (an end) but rather the specific means of attaining it. By calling this a moral issue you blur the distinction between what is a moral choice and what is a prudential one. I believe in just wages. I also believe the minimum wage should not be raised. That is, I agree on the end but disagree on the means. I may in fact be mistaken, but that would be an error, not a sin. I am confronted with no moral choices on this issue, only economic ones.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Where is it in Church teaching that a bishop cannot express an opinion on the minimum wage?

Well, the point was addressed by the Fourth Lateran Council, but I’m sure you know nothing is quite so black and white. Bishops work within guidelines, but that they frequently go too far seems hardly debatable, and it is not without its costs.*“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” *(Cardinal Dulles)

*I suggested that it is a mistake for bishops to squander their credibility as teachers of faith and morals by issuing pronouncements, especially politically partisan pronouncements, on matters beyond their competence as bishops. These are typically matters of prudential judgment on which Catholics (and others) of equal intelligence and good will can and do disagree. *(Fr. Richard Neuhaus)

*42. **Clerics and laity are not to usurp each others rights ***
*Just as we desire lay people not to usurp the rights of clerics, so we ought to wish clerics not to lay claim to the rights of the laity. We therefore forbid every cleric henceforth to extend his jurisdiction, under pretext of ecclesiastical freedom, to the prejudice of secular justice. Rather, let him be satisfied with the written constitutions and customs hitherto approved, so that the things of Caesar may be rendered unto Caesar, and the things of God may be rendered unto God by a right distribution. *(Fourth Lateran Council)
Ender

 

[stinkcat_14]

Well, the point was addressed by the Fourth Lateran Council, but I’m sure you know nothing is quite so black and white. Bishops work within guidelines, but that they frequently go too far seems hardly debatable, and it is not without its costs.*“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” *(Cardinal Dulles)

*I suggested that it is a mistake for bishops to squander their credibility as teachers of faith and morals by issuing pronouncements, especially politically partisan pronouncements, on matters beyond their competence as bishops. These are typically matters of prudential judgment on which Catholics (and others) of equal intelligence and good will can and do disagree. *(Fr. Richard Neuhaus)

These two are opinions, not Church teaching.

*42. **Clerics and laity are not to usurp each others rights ***
*Just as we desire lay people not to usurp the rights of clerics, so we ought to wish clerics not to lay claim to the rights of the laity. We therefore forbid every cleric henceforth to extend his jurisdiction, under pretext of ecclesiastical freedom, to the prejudice of secular justice. Rather, let him be satisfied with the written constitutions and customs hitherto approved, so that the things of Caesar may be rendered unto Caesar, and the things of God may be rendered unto God by a right distribution. *(Fourth Lateran Council)
Ender

How is stating an opinion, for which a bishop has a legal right, usurping anyone else’s right? While I may disagree with the Archbishop, he has not harmed me in any way by making a comment.

 

[jediliz]

the problem with raising the minimum wage is that different areas of the United States have different costs…for example…in New York…a SMALL apartment (studio?) would probably cost a minimum of $800 a month (maybe more as I’ve never been there). In my city, the equivalent would probably be maybe $300 a month.

In New York, it might make sense to have a $10 minimum wage for a 40 hours a week job if someone has that $800 a month apartment and is single. In my city, that $10 an hour would be a generous wage. When I worked at the public library 16 years ago, my wage was $5.55 an hour because I was an Elevated Library Aide - I made 40 cents more an hour than the regular minimum wage (at the time). I had no dependents to care for and only worked 15 hours a week, sometimes 16.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to raise families on. That is why we need to get more focus on doing better in school - do better in school and someone might earn a scholarship - earn a scholarship, college would be less expensive - do well in college and you have a better chance at a better career choice. Better Career choices = better wages. Better wages = better standard of living.

Also, take away the drinking and partying culture that seems to be prevalent on a lot of college campuses.

If we stop the breakup of the family (we need more mom&dad families), we are less likely to have single moms with children with three different fathers - good influences means young women are less likely to seek out love from someone else and then end up pregnant and alone.

What a fair minimum wage for Lincoln, Nebraska would be is far different than what it would be in New York or Los Angeles - it all has to do with costs and standard of living. Add in cost of apartment or a house’s mortgage, health insurance for one person or a family of three (minimum), groceries…they all vary for everyone.

 

[JHow]

Much of the fervor for the minimum wage comes not from the workers at the bottom actually getting the minimum, but from unions with contracts tied to some multiple or addition to the federal minimum. A minimum increase automatically boosts their wage without further negotiation.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Much of the fervor for the minimum wage comes not from the workers at the bottom actually getting the minimum, but from unions with contracts tied to some multiple or addition to the federal minimum. A minimum increase automatically boosts their wage without further negotiation.

What percentage of union contracts have their salaries tied to the minimum wage?