Michael Voris & 'Church Militant' on Purgatory

[Crusader13]

What is Mother Angelica known for? Is it not her role in spreading the Catholic faith through the media? Using this incident is no better than using a nun passing out condoms as evidence for birth control just because she also gave her life helping the poor. Michael Voris is no Mother Angelica. She spent her life spreading the Catholic faith, not attacking the clergy. Shock blogging and attacking the Church is the reputation developed by Michael Voris. Do you remember the mission of the Vortex? " Where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed," with whether something was a lie or falsehood being vetted by host Michael Voris absent any authority to do so.

I really understand that there is no harm in calling our error. However, we need to be sure that what we call error is without doubt what the Church calls error and not just opposed to our traditionalist Christianity. Liberal Catholicism is legitimate and can be orthodox.

Second, we need to address such problems as the Church does. Think of the humility of St. Catherine and not the sensationalist rhetoric of Michael Savage. Christian do their faith no great favor by imitating the world.

Again I’m not here to defend Michael Voris’s personality or tactics. It’s one thing to say that Michael Voris is too brash and condescending and therefore I don’t care to listen to him, no matter how true his conclusions are. However, it’s something different to say everything that comes out of his mouth and that of ChurchMilitant is a lie because Michael Voris is rude, condescending and not an authority. By the way, what makes a person an authority anyway? Just curious as to what people are using as a baseline to measure a persons ability to speak knowledgably about church teachings???

Mother Angelica was known for her staunch defense of “authentic Catholicism”. I never insinuated that she and Michael Voris were on the same level because they both spent their time attacking the clergy. However, Mother Angelica preferred traditional catholic teaching to what was being widely adopted at the time. She made more then a few comments during her lifetime that would support that. She used EWTN to further the Catholicity that she felt was necessary for the laity to hear. Now her apostolate wasn’t centered on investigating corrupt clergy, but she didn’t shy away from those who tried to use their position within the church to undermine the Church’s teachings. The two books by Raymond Arroyo on the life of Mother Angelica gave great insight into how fiercely loyal Mother Angelica was to the Church and her traditions.

 

[Crusader13]

I’ve heard several people take issue with the “Authority” or lack thereof for a person to call out abuses and scandals within the Church. I find that very troubling, because basically it says that nobody outside of the clergy within the Catholic Church, can speak out against abuses that may be occurring. That’s ridiculous, we as the laity, have every right to stand up and call into question a member of the clergy for doing something wrong. Or the very least, ask for an explanation as to why Father so and so said “this” or why did Bishop so and so show support for “that?” However, we don’t always know what is taking place because nobody is covering it.

Sure, if something makes headlines, like a priest getting busted for trying to buy drugs or pickup a prostitute, then of course everyone jumps on board to call out the bad actions, but if it isn’t on the five o’clock news, then for some it isn’t happening! I for one want to know when nuns or priests are secretly trying to advocate for women’s ordination or trying to push the Church to change its opposition to contraception. Yet, I’m being told that I shouldn’t listen to those who give the names of those same priests and nuns, simply because they aren’t an ordained authority! That’s nonsense! It’s not as if those within the church who are working behind the scenes to bring about the same changes that will one day have us looking like the Episcopal church, are going to be so blasé about their true intentions.

I’m all for being humble and showing respect for our Bishops and leaders of the faith, but I won’t put my head in the sand when something comes to light as to why a particular diocese has given financial support to persons or organizations which staunchly oppose Catholic morals and beliefs, simply because I didn’t see the story on EWTN or the Catholic News Agency!

 

[pnewton]

Again I’m not here to defend Michael Voris’s personality or tactics. It’s one thing to say that Michael Voris is too brash and condescending and therefore I don’t care to listen to him, no matter how true his conclusions are. However, it’s something different to say everything that comes out of his mouth and that of ChurchMilitant is a lie because Michael Voris is rude, condescending and not an authority.

I do not believe that anyone has ever made this claim, making this a straw man. However, I am perfectly within sound Scriptural reasoning to test the fruit of the Spirit before I give a person without ecclesial authority any consideration. You are free to use tie color, if that is your choice. It is not saying that he has ever lied one bit, or that he is a bad person for me to say that I give him no credentialed consideration at all based on my spiritual discernment of his rhetoric. Whether I am being gullible, or his listeners are will have to wait until the final judgment.

By the way, what makes a person an authority anyway?

That is an easy question for a Catholic. Authority is derived from the apostolic succession of the Pope, and to the bishops in unity with the Pope. That is why diocesan approval is important. “By what authority?” is the first question in Catholicism.

Now consider this in light of the specific topic. Purgatory. As the Catholic Church has never defined any sort of percentages or likelyhood of Hell, Heaven or Purgatory, can’t you see why I can dismiss the sort of speculation? If Mother Church does not have an opinion but leaves it to God, why try to persuade others to one’s personal opinion? For that matter, why even have an opinion?

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I note Church Militant is being blamed by Fr. James Martin for being asked not to do yet another speaking event. Accurately, mind, they orchestrated a full campaign to have him removed.

What occurs to me is that CM are the first to whine like a kicked dog when conservative voices are ‘no platformed’ through pressure, and here they are doing to same thing to others.

As I have said, I don’t have a particular axe to grind with Church Militant or Michael Voris, or even Fr. Martin, I just find this an interesting lack of self awareness on CMs part. With perhaps a touch of vindictiveness, uncharitably.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Umm… no? Divine Mercy Sunday is helpful; but Divine Mercy doesn’t save sinners. (It just helps those who are already in a state of grace avoid the temporal punishment due to sin, and – with luck – convinces those who are in a state of mortal sin to make recourse to the sacraments to be absolved of their sin. Of course, one doesn’t need Divine Mercy Sunday to go to confession. )

Helpful? It’s a whole lot more then that. One cannot reduce the Mercy offered by our Lord Jesus to ‘helpful’

Let’s not trivialise this great gift Jesus has given us, and St Pope John Paul 11 promoted. He died on Divine Mercy Sunday and wrote about it on his death bed.

Divine Mercy Sunday saves all sinners who ask. Of their sin and punishment, and through Jesus, many graces flow to them on this day.

“”
Jesus made it very clear that He would pour out a whole ocean of graces on that day and that the Divine Floodgates would be wide-opened. Jesus promised that the soul that would go to Confession and receive Holy Communion, on that day, would receive the total forgiveness of all sins and punishment. “”"

Jesus has told us , all our sins to that point will be completely forgiven, and pardoned of punishment on Divine Mercy Sunday. Jesus gave a couple of conditions. There is no luck. We ask and are given this grace by Jesus.
This is a feast for sinners. We go
To take communion,
To do works of Mercy and Charity
To venerate the image Jesus himself asked painted,
And to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Divine Mercy Sunday, ask for mercy, Go to Reconcilliation, communion, Jesus states we are forgiven of all sin and punishment. In Sacrament of Reconcilliation at other times, we are forgiven but still have the punishment. Of course there is also Plenary Indulgences that absolve the punishment.

 

[Techno2000]

Very good. Thanks!

Thanks, you made my day…here’s a little booklet that is full of stuff from Catholic Mystics that I Love.

http://brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm

The Pieta Prayer Book | The Catholic Company®

 

[Crusader13]

Although Mr Voris seems to defend Orthodoxy, he and his ‘crew’ are pretty harsh, the woman on this episode and the rest commented that only those who are completely perfect go straight to heaven, and that most of us may have to spend millions of years in Purgatory - this extreme view seems to nullify the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. On the other hand EWTN and Catholic Answers have been both enlightening concerning the Truth but also full of the love of God.

This is what the original posting was about. Just to be correct, Michael Voris wasn’t talking about spending millions of years in purgatory. He was using a financial analogy in conjunction with Matthew 5:26, where Jesus tells them “you will not get out until the last penny is paid”. The analogy Voris said was that much of humanity has amassed debt (sin) in the millions of dollars. He wasn’t saying you spend one day in purgatory for every dollar of (sin) that you owe. As to what Bookworm77 found harsh, I’m not sure. The video did, at least in my opinion give a rather correct description of purgatory and why the Church is correct in its support of it.

pnewton, my “straw man” argument wasn’t given as such. I was merely drawing a distinction between those who dislike him for the way he comes across and those who think that because he’s arrogant and brash, that he’s incorrect and doesn’t have “authority” to speak on church teachings. I was generalizing those who take this second view and not directly applying it to one specific person or persons on this thread.

As for Authority, you summed up what I assumed some people were talking about. If Voris is to be considered wrong on his views about the Church’s teachings because he doesn’t have Apostolic Authority, then that same standard would apply to nearly every apologist here at Catholic Answers. Most of the well known catholic apologists, Karl Keating, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Trent Horn and many others, don’t have “authority”, in the sense you described it, to speak authoritatively on church teachings. However, I don’t believe that any of the above mentioned men are wrong in their explanations of the faith. They may share different views or approaches on how to explain or defend the faith, but that doesn’t mean they are discredited because they have no official “authority”.

So that brings us back to what my whole point was. People don’t like Voris for the way he comes across and I get that. He’s unapologetically Catholic and he’s critical of “liberal” practices within the Church. He doesn’t care for communion in the hand, the over use of Eucharistic ministers, the holding of hands during the our father, the turning away from the traditional music and embracing the more evangelical Christian contemporary sound. Views that many do not share, but then again many do.

 

[pnewton]

. If Voris is to be considered wrong on his views about the Church’s teachings because he doesn’t have Apostolic Authority, then that same standard would apply to nearly every apologist here at Catholic Answers. Most of the well known catholic apologists, Karl Keating, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Trent Horn and many others, don’t have “authority”, in the sense you described it, to speak authoritatively on church teachings.

There is a significant difference. This place does operate under the authority of the Bishop of San Diego as one of their approved apostolates.

Nonetheless, I still will have nothing to do with any of the above if I find the spirit of their discourse disturbing.

 

[Crusader13]

I note Church Militant is being blamed by Fr. James Martin for being asked not to do yet another speaking event. Accurately, mind, they orchestrated a full campaign to have him removed.

What occurs to me is that CM are the first to whine like a kicked dog when conservative voices are ‘no platformed’ through pressure, and here they are doing to same thing to others.

As I have said, I don’t have a particular axe to grind with Church Militant or Michael Voris, or even Fr. Martin, I just find this an interesting lack of self awareness on CMs part. With perhaps a touch of vindictiveness, uncharitably.

I can’t blame them for wanting to oppose priests like Father Martin who seem disingenuous or purposefully ambivalent when it comes to supporting Church morals and teachings. I don’t view it as whining per say, but they are very vocal in their defense of the more conservative aspects of our faith. My view is that CM and maybe even to a greater extent, Michael Voris are quick to call out clergy and other Catholics who, either maliciously or unknowingly misrepresent the faith. I too can see a sense of unyielding and a relentless defense of their views.

So if someone doesn’t want to listen to or support ChurchMilitant, then they are well within their right to do so. I for one, do not see what they do as detrimental to the faith and the only time I even take issue is when people start trying to discredit him based solely on his personality. There is a crisis in the Church today. It doesn’t take a masters in theology to see that something has gone wrong. I’ve heard several apologists say that trend of people leaving the Church is far greater then those coming in. Many self professed Catholics no longer adhere to the Churches teachings and instead pick and choose which practices they want to follow. During the election, many of those same Catholics chose to back pro abortion candidates because they view immigration, welfare and the right to free access to contraception as greater social injustices, then say abortion and the sanctity of marriage.

I don’t pretend to have an answer for how this can be fixed, but the Church has suffered for decades by sacrificing authentic Catholic teachings in favor of fostering unity and ecumenism. If we as the laity start to see the benefit of Women’s ordination, then somewhere along the line our leaders within the church have failed to uphold the Catholic Faith. So where do we turn? How do we hold our leaders accountable when father A, says that he hopes one day the church will change its mind on ordaining women? Where do we turn when father A’s own bishop ignores the complaints of the laity because father A is well liked by his congregation. I have asked these very questions because I’ve personally heard two separate priests make very similar comments at the parishes I attended.

I honestly don’t see any other Catholic media outlet taking to task these issues. Many ignore it or downplay the seriousness of the issue.

 

[Crusader13]

There is a significant difference. This place does operate under the authority of the Bishop of San Diego as one of their approved apostolates.

Nonetheless, I still will have nothing to do with any of the above if I find the spirit of their discourse disturbing.

I don’t fault you for having your own opinion and I for one don’t have issues with people who prefer not to listen to certain apologists because they don’t consider them as effective as others.

Yes Catholic Answers has the approval of the Bishop of San Diego, but the organization itself is lay-run. And again Catholic Answers, to my knowledge, isn’t an investigative and news media outlet in the same way as say EWTN. Catholic Answers is probably the premier catholic apologetics website and they do an outstanding job of defending the faith against non-catholics. However, I’m not turning to Catholic Answers for the latest news breaking headline about what’s happening in Washington or for world news.

So if one of the big named news sites, like CNN or FOX news is reporting that Bishop “so and so” or Cardinal “so and so” are attending a pro gay marriage rally and nobody from EWTN or Catholic News Agency is sending their own reporters to cover why that is, then it doesn’t matter if places like Catholic Answers has the approval of their Bishop or not.

 

[pnewton]

“so and so” are attending a pro gay marriage rally and nobody from EWTN or Catholic News Agency is sending their own reporters to cover why that is, then it doesn’t matter if places like Catholic Answers has the approval of their Bishop or not.

I assure you, that while Catholic Answers does not send reporters if this happens(it is not their thing), we can read about it here.

On a similar note, I understand and respect those who do find something useful in Church Militant. I have repeatedly said this throughout all the discussions here about them over the years.

 

[Church_Militant]

What she said!

 

[Crusader13]

“so and so” are attending a pro gay marriage rally and nobody from EWTN or Catholic News Agency is sending their own reporters to cover why that is, then it doesn’t matter if places like Catholic Answers has the approval of their Bishop or not.

Very true. I didn’t want to give the impression that CA NEVER talks about clergy who are in the wrong. Like you mentioned above “it’s not their thing” and I’m okay with that. They have a different focus and look to share the faith in a very different and equally effective way.

I don’t agree with every thing that comes out of CM or with the words or actions that Michael Voris uses to convey his views. I just see a very clear distinction between two of the main goals of CM, which are to defend the faith from those outside and within the Church and to investigate leads and stories about corruption and scandal.

Many do not like that Voris and CM take issue with Father Martin or Bishop Barron or Cardinal Dolan and they view CM’s criticisms of them as unfair and mean spirited. I understand, if not always agree, with those who see it that way, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that because CM/Michael Voris are overly critical of members of the clergy that they are wrong in their defense of Church teachings on purgatory, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist or how Sola Scriptura is wrong. In many cases Voris and CM have been spot on when defending authentic Catholic teachings.

That is basically my whole point.

 

[Techno2000]

Although Mr Voris seems to defend Orthodoxy, he and his ‘crew’ are pretty harsh, the woman on this episode and the rest commented that only those who are completely perfect go straight to heaven, and that most of us may have to spend millions of years in Purgatory - this extreme view seems to nullify the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.

Bookworm77… some people like to stress God’s Justice, and other like to stress God’s Mercy… for me it’s the latter.

Sr. Josefa Menendez (1890-1923) -Jesus’ Message to the World of His Mercy for All

“I would like these [those living with sin] to understand that it is not the fact of being in sin that ought to keep them from Me. They must never think that there is no remedy for them, nor that they have forfeited for ever the love that once was theirs… No, poor souls, the God who has shed all His Blood for you has no such feelings for you!”

“It is My intention also, to show souls that I never refuse grace, even to those who are guilty of grave sin; nor do I separate them from the good souls whom I love with predilection. I keep them all in My Heart, that all may receive the help needed for their state of soul.” -Jesus to Sr. Josefa Menendez

Mystics of the Church: Sister Josefa Menendez The Way of Divine Love

 

[Bookworm77]

Very good, and thanks again:smiley:
Have bookmarked the Pieta page.
I am somewhat of a mystic and philosopher and love to read other mystics (as long as they are not heretics obviously.)

I have just finished a Doctorate on Middle Eastern classical music from the 16th century, my oud (Mid East lute - great-grandfather to the guitar) and nay (reed-flute) teacher is Coptic and lives in Cairo. I am a part of Mike’s Ouds forums which is also run by Coptic and Maronite Christians. My study looked a bit at the ‘Whirling Dervishes’ form of Sufism, and during my research I discovered that the Mevlevi school of Sufism actually has it’s roots in Neoplatonism and the Early Church mystics. So, mystics, Plato, Plotinus and their relation to St Augustine, and Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas, and then the Apostolic Fathers led me to the door of the Catholic Church!
I love the music of St Hildegard of Bingen as well as her profound writings also.
God bless.

 

[Bookworm77]

On a similar note, I understand and respect those who do find something useful in Church Militant. I have repeatedly said this throughout all the discussions here about them over the years.

I agree, it is certainly not all bad (Church Militant) and although Voris is blunt I respect him for his courage to deal with issues such as Modernism, he has said many good things, I found his talks on Our Lady to be good.
God bless.

 

[AlNg]

Neither usury nor geocentrism were ever doctrinal matters.

Did the leaders of the Catholic Church ever teach about geocentrism or usury?

 

[AlNg]

As for Authority, you summed up what I assumed some people were talking about. If Voris is to be considered wrong on his views about the Church’s teachings because he doesn’t have Apostolic Authority, then that same standard would apply to nearly every apologist here at Catholic Answers. Most of the well known catholic apologists, Karl Keating, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Trent Horn and many others, don’t have “authority”, in the sense you described it, to speak authoritatively on church teachings.

What does it mean to speak authoritatively? In the past wasn’t there a lot of authoritative teaching on Limbo ?

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Neither usury nor geocentrism were ever doctrinal matters.

Did the leaders of the Catholic Church ever teach about geocentrism or usury?

Yes. Geocentrism, though, isn’t a matter of “faith and morals”, but rather, of science. Usury, on the other hand, was condemned as “theft”, in the civil sense.

The Church may have spoken on these matters – much as it speaks on other non-doctrinal matters today (e.g., global warming & responsible stewardship of our resources) – but that doesn’t mean that the Church made doctrinal statements about them (much as it doesn’t make a doctrinal statement on AGW).