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on_the_hill
Guest
In the land of Rosie O’Donnell, television’s “Queen of Nice.”
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Gidge
Guest
Very well stated.
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pnewton
Guest
Can’t prove a negative. An absurd claim requires the person making it to substantiate it. I guess in Nice, France there might be such a thing. I know of no Church that is built around this single attribute. However, if by nice one means kind, I have never heard a Catholic treat with disdain a spiritual virtue.
He used it in this one piece.
thefreedictionary.com/substantiated
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pnewton
Guest
An independent organization.
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pnewton
Guest
The technical sense is important, as that allows an organization to be incorporated within the body of the Catholic Church, subject to its authority structure and deriving a divine preaching authority from Her. It is not the only way to operate, but it does have advantages, especially if one is in the business of throwing stones. It is good to have a reminder of when stoning is, and is not, appropriate.
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Joe_5859
Guest
How is the diocese the apostolate is based in different from the diocese where he operates from?
Isn’t it all in the same place?
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Gidge
Guest
No, Michael resides in Detroit, his studio is in Indiana.How is the diocese the apostolate is based in different from the diocese where he operates from?
This is strange, as the Local Ordinary in Michigan doesn’t even have jurisdiction over what goes on in a studio in another diocese.
Bottom line, when the truth is proclaimed, you get flack. Our Lord told us so.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I thought his benefactor was in Indiana but that the studio was in Detroit.
Evidently I was misinformed.Let’s not trot out the “persecution” card already.
I’ve seen a lot of legitimate criticism of Voris that has nothing to do with proclamation of truth.
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Gidge
Guest
Maybe I do have it mixed-up.I thought his benefactor was in Indiana but that the studio was in Detroit.
Let’s not trot out the “persecution” card already.
I’ve seen nothing of Voris that I disagree with (admittedly, sometimes his use of sarcasm is over-the-top)
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jking1962
Guest
Which version of the Bible states that “nice” is a virtue?
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jking1962
Guest
Interesting how “what we have done and what we have failed to do” comes to mind in regards to not reporting or discussing or challenging wrongs in the Church. St. Paul did it. Saint Catherine of Siena did it. Voris reporting is very accurate as based on the lack of rebuff by the other side. It is going to be very awkward for lapdog media as Voris’ popularity grows and the corruption comes to a point where even they will need to take the blinders off. Conspiracy theory my foot.
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Joe_5859
Guest
It makes me uncomfortable that every single Voris thread seems to include a comparison of him to St. Catherine of Siena and St. Paul. I’m sure he’s a great guy, but doesn’t that seem a tad hyperbolic? And yet I see that comparison made over and over again.
There’s the old adage that some criticisms ought not be dignified with a response. It would be a mistake to equate silence with admission that Voris is correct in his criticisms. Honestly, not many people outside of certain circles have ever even heard of the guy.
I don’t consider making blanket generalizations about the Catholic media being full of “lap dog careerists” as being “very accurate”. At best, that is speculation. At worst, that is gossip and slander. It concerns me to see a Catholic commentator reading nefarious motives into fellow Catholics when there are far more reasonable (and less nefarious) explanations that are much more likely. Catholic new outlets did comment on the “gay lobby” stuff, they just didn’t run full steam ahead based on hearsay and innuendo. That’s called journalistic integrity.
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jking1962
Guest
So if the defense is “overused” somehow it lessens it merit? Personally, I didn’t borrow it. The point still stands that a lay person can defend the Faith even if it means speaking out against ills in the clergy. The point on silence is yet another very valid position. For example, if there was slander against someone or something I respected such as the CCHD or New York’s St. Francis Xavier Parish I would certainly want to set the story straight.
I know many people who have never heard of EWTN let alone specific personalities, but ask any faithful Catholic with internet access if they have heard of Michael Voris and there is a good chance they know who he is. Does someone have to be popular to have a good point?. It’s all about the message, not the messenger. Finally, Voris being guilty of slander by calling many Catholic media “lapdogs”. Using that argument you have to consider him guilty of slander by calling the Catholic Church in America “the Church of Nice”. He is making a generalization of the whole without pointing specific people. When he does have dirt on a specific person such as Cardinal Dolan be sure that he will be specific.
It is interesting how people criticize Voris’ reporting but fail to apply to very rules they inaccurately accuse Voris of doing. If you are going to criticize Voris then point out something specific, something objective such as a lie or a misquote. I personally believe Voris will have the integrity to retract any false reporting. Calling him uncharitable because he is"negative" too much won’t cut it. What is too much anyways?
I know many people who have never heard of EWTN let alone specific personalities, but ask any faithful Catholic with internet access if they have heard of Michael Voris and there is a good chance they know who he is. Does someone have to be popular to have a good point?. It’s all about the message, not the messenger. Finally, Voris being guilty of slander by calling many Catholic media “lapdogs”. Using that argument you have to consider him guilty of slander by calling the Catholic Church in America “the Church of Nice”. He is making a generalization of the whole without pointing specific people. When he does have dirt on a specific person such as Cardinal Dolan be sure that he will be specific.
It is interesting how people criticize Voris’ reporting but fail to apply to very rules they inaccurately accuse Voris of doing. If you are going to criticize Voris then point out something specific, something objective such as a lie or a misquote. I personally believe Voris will have the integrity to retract any false reporting. Calling him uncharitable because he is"negative" too much won’t cut it. What is too much anyways?
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Joe_5859
Guest
I said the comparison unsettles me because I find it unsettling when any living Catholic figure gets spoken of as though they are a living saint who can do no wrong. Such comparisons seem to me to be a way to place a figure above criticism. I’d rather just take an honest look at the facts of the matter.
Honestly, the video referenced in the OP was the first video of his I’ve ever watched in full. I always seem to chime in on Voris threads, though, because Catholic “personalities” interest me.
I did offer a specific criticism. I would think it would fall more to Mr. Voris to prove his assertion that those in Catholic media are cowards who dare not speak out for fear of losing their paycheck than it would be for me to prove that his unsubstantiated claim is false. Why are we to take such assertions as fact?Many of the comments he makes could just as easily be said about him. He is also a “professional Catholic” in the sense that he is making his living talking about Catholic things (unless he’s independently wealthy or has another job and I just haven’t heard). Sure, he doesn’t mention specific people, but he mentions many Catholic media outlets and paints them all with the same broad brush without any sort of qualification whatsoever. He might say that “some” or “most” working at those places are like that. But he does not.
Not to get into a popularity contest, but I’m somewhat amazed that there are circles out there where Voris is more recognizable than EWTN. Pretty much everyone I know from my (quite large) Catholic communities in both my undergrad and grad school would know EWTN. But I’ve never heard any of them mention Voris before.
I have only ever heard of Voris here at CAF. I. guess we run in different circles.
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Havard
Guest
I watched the video. I’m saddened by how casually he made such uncharitable criticism of “establishment Catholic media”.
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awsiukiewicz
Guest
Well said…gosh I wish I could have articulated as well…ditto to Used2beSherryG
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Gidge
Guest
This, sir, is untrue at worst and misinformation at best.
I have watched dozens of Voris videos and have yet to see such a comparison.
As to the OP :
EWTN is only mentioned in passing in the Voris clip as one of many Catholic news outlets who drop the ball in failing to address difficult issues within the Church, issues that may make the USCCB embarassed or uncomfortable.
The thread title is misleading, IMO.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
That’s a fair point, as sometimes some branches of Catholic media are less than willing to expose the sins of those in the Church.
Thanks, I’ll check out what he said.
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jking1962
Guest
I would suggest giving the guy a chance. There are people whose personality or delivery initially turn me off a bit but after focusing on the information being delivered rather than the delivery I had a better appreciation of the individual. In defense of Voris, the constant criticism is “he’s uncharitable”. I might seem uncharitable to on onlooker when I am chastising a friend. What I fail to hear is some substantial criticism of Voris in regards to content i.e. erroneous reporting. Reporting “too much” about a substantiated truth is not a good argument. I would like to see this list of legitimate errors in Voris reporting. Perhaps I am misinformed.
If we are called to imitate Jesus and those before us who have been faithful what is the problem with identifying a specific behavior of someone with a Saint? Where is the syllabus of errors in Voris’ reporting?
In regards to “professional Catholic” certainly Voris is certainly a professional Catholic. He is not criticizing people who earn a living being a spokesperson in a Catholic lay ministry. Otherwise, as he must include himself. What he does criticize are people or groups who turn a blind eye to ills in the Church. “If you see your brother in sin…” Voris particular ministry is a watch dog to bring to public awareness the ills in the Church. Most of us appreciate this kind of reporting such as “60 minutes”. Woodward and Bernstein helped bring Nixon to justice in the 70’s. In light of all the corruption in the Church today ministries such as these are needed, but of course there were people who despised Woodward and Bernstein because they loved a person more than the truth.
In regards to circles, I attend a very growing FSSP parish with three priests and no EMs so perhaps we do run in different circles, but is that really pertinent to the discussion?
If we are called to imitate Jesus and those before us who have been faithful what is the problem with identifying a specific behavior of someone with a Saint? Where is the syllabus of errors in Voris’ reporting?
In regards to “professional Catholic” certainly Voris is certainly a professional Catholic. He is not criticizing people who earn a living being a spokesperson in a Catholic lay ministry. Otherwise, as he must include himself. What he does criticize are people or groups who turn a blind eye to ills in the Church. “If you see your brother in sin…” Voris particular ministry is a watch dog to bring to public awareness the ills in the Church. Most of us appreciate this kind of reporting such as “60 minutes”. Woodward and Bernstein helped bring Nixon to justice in the 70’s. In light of all the corruption in the Church today ministries such as these are needed, but of course there were people who despised Woodward and Bernstein because they loved a person more than the truth.
In regards to circles, I attend a very growing FSSP parish with three priests and no EMs so perhaps we do run in different circles, but is that really pertinent to the discussion?
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Joe_5859
Guest
I guess I am prone to speaking hyperbolically, too.
I wasn’t talking about his videos, though. I was talking about the threads here on CAF. And, no, I did not read through every single thread in order to pick out that comparison in each one. My point was that I have seen such comparisons on many occassions.
Perhaps I should not have made the comment. I did not mean to side track things with that. I’m sure Voris isn’t saying such things about himself. The story of St. Catherine of Siena telling the pope to go back to Avignon gets a lot of play on Catholic internet discussions for some reason.
I hate to see it used as the “magic bullet” defense against any accusations of not being charitable or not giving our bishops the benefit of the doubt. And once it’s used, then we’re no longer supposed to be concerned about issues of charity because one saint on one occassion told a pope he needed to step up. - Status