Michael Voris: Weapons of 'MASS' Destruction

[MarkThompson]

I realize you are the self-appointed editor or proof reader of this forum, but do you really need to nit-pick as to the time line of the Vatican II changes?

Many people see Protestant elements in the Novus Ordo. Go debate them.

The OF and the EF are very different liturgies. To play the party line that they are two forms of the same Mass is superficial. The OF is closer to an Anglican high church or old Lutheran service than the Mass which defined Catholicism for 1500 years.

Did you watch the videos? Email Mr. Voris your objections if any.

What a humorous argument style:

“The Protestants at the Council made the New Mass Protestant”

–“Actually, the new order of the rite was developed several years later, and not at the Council.”

“Er… stop nitpicking about the timeline.”

It’s a fitting match with this little shimmy of yours:
“You can tell the New Mass must be bad, because Protestants had such a big influence.”

–“No, they didn’t.”

“Er, well, you can tell Protestants must have had a big influence, because the New Mass is so bad.”

 

[JReducation]

I realize you are the self-appointed editor or proof reader of this forum, but do you really need to nit-pick as to the time line of the Vatican II changes?

Many people see Protestant elements in the Novus Ordo. Go debate them.

The OF and the EF are very different liturgies. To play the party line that they are two forms of the same Mass is superficial. The OF is closer to an Anglican high church or old Lutheran service than the Mass which defined Catholicism for 1500 years.

Did you watch the videos? Email Mr. Voris your objections if any.

Mr. Voris is not Pope Benedict XVI. It was Pope Benedict XVI who said that the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms are two forms of the same Latin Rite.

One also has to ask certain questions here. I for one would be interested in the answers. Because I checked and no one seems to know.

1. Is Mr. Voris a Catholic apologist or an apologist who is a Catholic? They are not the same thing. The former can speak for the Church, the latter can only speak for himself. For example, the apologists on Catholic Answers have the approval of the Archbishop of San Diego.
2. Is St. Micheal’s Ministry a Catholic ministry or a ministry run by Catholics? Not the same thing. Canon law is very clear that only a bishop can call a ministry Catholic, even when it is run by Catholics for Catholics. For example, Catholic Answers, EWTN, and Radio Peace in Miami are all lay apostolates, but they are called Catholic. They are authorized by the Church to use the name Catholic.
3. Mr. Voris is an excellent speaker and seems to be a very good researcher. But there is a concern about his products. Unlike someone like Raymond Arroyo, Mr. Voris rarely, if ever, has an bishop, theologian or an expert on his videos to explain the issue. We only get what he says. His delivery is excellent, but I for one would like to see a Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Brian Millady, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Mother Angnes of the Sisters of Life, Archbishop Chaput, and many other prominent Catholic thinkers explaining some of these finer points. No one man with a Bachelor in Theology can be a master of so many branches of theology. That’s like saying that someone with a Bachelor’s in biology is a biologist. That’s not the case. Mr. Voris is an excellent speaker, but he is not a theologian. He needs to get some theologians on his videos. We have many excellent ones in the USA.

While I agree with the problems that he identifies, I am slow to say that his perspective is correct, because it lacks contribution and support from other sources. All we have is his word that he interviewed or spoke to this person or that person. I’m sure he’s not lying. He does not look like a charlatan. But it is very easy for someone to hear what they want to hear. It is much better to have Dr. Hildebrand there herself and ask her the questions or Fr. Thomas Dubay, who is an expert in Spiritual Theology and its development today and others like them.

Watch, learn, but be careful not to place all of your trust in a good delivery. Mr. Voris delivers well, he seems to have good intentions for the Church and the faithful; but the question must be asked, why is he alwasy alone, unlike the theologians that we often see on EWTN or that we hear on CA Radio or read in The Rock. These folks get to state their opinions and don’t often agree, but it gives you a bigger picture.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[roadsend]

… That’s like saying that someone with a Bachelor’s in biology is a biologist. …

And someone with a Bachelor’s in biology cannot call himself a biologist?

How about someone with a Bachelor’s in engineering?
Can he call himself an engineer?

There are lots of quite successful biologists and engineers out there with Bachelor’s degrees.

If the guy has a degree in theology and can make a decent living as a theologian, why can’t he be called a theologian?

Heck, I remember the “Pastoral Associate”, who handled my father-in-laws funeral, who had a Master’s degree in either theology or liturgy from a prominent Jesuit university. She didn’t even know how to say a Rosary and I somehow don’t think it would have helped, if she had gotten a doctorate.

 

[pnewton]

From the Holy Father:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html

It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.

 

[JReducation]

And someone with a Bachelor’s in biology cannot call himself a biologist?

How about someone with a Bachelor’s in engineering?
Can he call himself an engineer?

There are lots of quite successful biologists and engineers out there with Bachelor’s degrees.

If the guy has a degree in theology and can make a decent living as a theologian, why can’t he be called a theologian?

Heck, I remember the “Pastoral Associate”, who handled my father-in-laws funeral, who had a Master’s degree in either theology or liturgy from a prominent Jesuit university. She didn’t even know how to say a Rosary and I somehow don’t think it would have helped, if she had gotten a doctorate.

To be a Catholic theologian you must meet certain criteria.

1. Have a doctorate degree in theology that is recognized by the Church.
2. Have a mandatum from the bishop, an abbot or a religious superior
3. Have the permission of the Church to use the title “Catholic Theologian”.

Even there, those who have all the above are not experts in all branches of theology. You only get it for the one branch that you majored in.

That does not mean that you’ll be a genius either. Trust me. I can tell you the anatomy of the soul in my sleep. That’s my field. Ask me a question about canon law and I know no more than the average parish priest knows. That’s because he and I had two years of Canon Law and that was it. We never studied it again. Ask me something about Systematic Theology and I probably have to pull out my notes or go for a book. Better yet, I’ll point you to some one who is a Systematic Theologian. Why? All that I had of Systematic Theology was two years. During the eight years that we’re in seminary we are like medical students. We get a taste of everything. A medical student goes on for a residency. That’s where she becomes a specialist.

A theology student can do one of two things. He can stop after eight years and walk away with a Master’s Degree or an STB and go into ministry or he can go on for another four years to get a doctoral specialty degree: STD, JCD, or SSD or he can go for an academic doctorate in theology (PhD). To be a bishop you must be a Doctor.

Let’s not minimize either. That would be wrong. A Bachelor of Sacred Thelogy is a graduate degree comparable to an M.Div. The STB is more academic and the M.Div is more pastoral. The STB is the first step toward a Doctorate. There follows an STL then an STD.

Until you meet the criteria, you cannot be a Catholic theologian. Again, even if you are, you’re not an expert in every branch of theology any more than an opthamologist is an OB/GYN. You need to work with others. All medical doctors can deliver a baby. Not all are OBs or pediatricians. Everyone went through all of these classes though. The same is true about theology students. We all go through the same program. At the end, each takes a specialty road.

That’s why I wish that he would back up his points with the experts present, at least as often as possible. For example, he mentiond Dr. Alice Hildebrand. Dr. Hildebrand is not a liturgist or a theologian. She’s a philosopher who is also a very well formed Catholic. It would have been really good to have her philosophical insight on the video. She has spoken on this topc and she’s very good. She should be allowed to speak for herself. I like her very much.

Hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[archangel04]

Once again JReducation you have enlgihten us with your very well put statements. Although I agree with a lot of things Michael says, you are right about how easy it is for us to hear what we want to hear, and always good to listen to the other “sides”. Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know whats alarming about the second video,are the statistics mentioned between Vatican II and the Latin Mass.

I could see how is it arrived at a 50-50 split in Mass following. But I can’t seem to understand how the assessment of their lifestyle is confirmed. How would you know whos pro-life for example. These actual numbers must be assumed. I’m positve that census forms haven’t been handed out in Mass lately.

I understand the concern, thats obvious. I also believe that evil has been an issue, hard not to conlude otherwise. I also agree with respect and reverence etc. I’m skeptical about just what a Latin Mass would do for church attendance and sincere following.

Yet at the end of the day the loss of followers can’t be denied from 60-now. Should be interesting to see how the following increase’s in the next decade between the 50% who follow the Latin Mass and all others? What do you suppose will happen?

 

[centurionguard]

From the Holy Father:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.

If this statement were fully true we wouldn’t see strong evidence of a crisis in many aspects of the Church. Not sure how one can say there is “no definitive rupture”.

We have two extremes in the Church. The separation of the Eastern Churches and at either end of the north and south poles the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass.

Disunity in the Catholic Church is quite evident. In the end how can one say either Mass is favored above the other since both are legitimized and approved by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Could one presuppose their was as much liturgical abuse in the TLM in comparison today to what is happening in the Novus Ordo Mass?

For me this is fairly a big part the crux of why so many in the Catholic Church are questioning the Novus Ordo Mass and the fact that it IS a sizable radical change in liturgy in comparison to before when the actual Novus Ordo was initiated in the 1960’s.

 

[Third_Day]

Let’s not forget that Mr. Voris clearly stated that the New Mass is valid.

I think Mr.Voris made a few errors. Cardinal Ottaviani did not write the Ottaviani Intervention. The study was written by 12 theologians. About ten years ago I came across the Italian copy of the L’Obsservore from which Bugnini was said to have made the statment about stripping the Church…no longer a stumbling block etc and I had it translated and it didn’t say what has been claimed. I no longer have that copy. Maybe someone has a correct translation. Bugnini may have been mis-quoted by those who hated him.

I don’t think it can be denied that the New Mass can have some shortcomings because it does depend on the personality of the priest who faces the people and therefore his gestures, his eye-contact etc can have an effect on the congregation. If he looks like he’s bored, yawning, distracted it can appear that he lacks reference to those at Mass.

I was an altar boy when the Mass was in Latin and I can remember a priest that was an alcoholic and he was tipsy while saying Mass. The altar boys could tell but not the congregation since he didn’t face the congregation. Other priests sometimes rushed through the daily Mass in 20 minutes. So what went on at the Latin Mass was not always reverent either.

I go to both the Latin and the New Mass. If the New Mass is done correctly, with some Latin, genuflections, bowing, traditional music, it can be very reverent and uplifting. I don’t find the words “Let this become for us the bread of life” to be confusing as Mr. Voris does. Jesus is the bread of life. The words “spiritual drink” are misleading, in my opinion.

 

[Ockham]

What a humorous argument style:

If you want to pretend there is no Protestant element to the Novus Ordo that’s your prerogative. Is that your point or are you merely trying to show how smart you are by breaking down argument structure, pointing out grammatical or spelling errors, type-os, etc? How about standing up and telling the class whether you see Protestant elements in the NO and then offer your theory as to how they got there.

 

[Ockham]

I was an altar boy when the Mass was in Latin and I can remember a priest that was an alcoholic and he was tipsy while saying Mass. The altar boys could tell but not the congregation since he didn’t face the congregation. Other priests sometimes rushed through the daily Mass in 20 minutes. So what went on at the Latin Mass was not always reverent either.

I’ve heard this before. If these are the two worse possible abuses to the TLM then compared to what we’ve seen in the NO things were much better off then. 75% of Catholics went to the TLM when it was the only Mass whether Father was tippsy or not.

 

[JReducation]

If this statement were fully true we wouldn’t see strong evidence of a crisis in many aspects of the Church. Not sure how one can say there is “no definitive rupture”.[/quot]

If you believe that this not true. What are Pope Benedict’s motives for telling a lie?

We have two extremes in the Church. The separation of the Eastern Churches and at either end of the north and south poles the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m listening to this now with some skeptisim, I’m hoping he doesn’t go where I think he might go.

 

[Stylites]

Michael Voris is a modern day evangelist. He’s on the path to sainthood.

Will he become the Patron Saint of disunifiers and calumnious finger-waggers?

 

[Ockham]

The Church was unified before the Novus Ordo. Voris is making known the history of the new rite and helping the average Catholic know the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

Heck, I remember the “Pastoral Associate”, who handled my father-in-laws funeral, who had a Master’s degree in either theology or liturgy from a prominent Jesuit university. She didn’t even know how to say a Rosary and I somehow don’t think it would have helped, if she had gotten a doctorate.

Degrees are important but they’re not everything. For example, I received a masters in finance over 30 years ago. Does that make me a financier today? I know a lot of others who have gotten rich(er) through financing without degrees. And I’m not vulnerable against financial errors, which I’ve made plenty of.

With a degree, you’re expected to do something with it. Constant learning is the key. Degrees are only stepping stones but they’re not an end in themselves. Your example is spot on.

 

[ProVobis]

Other priests sometimes rushed through the daily Mass in 20 minutes. So what went on at the Latin Mass was not always reverent either.

Even if this were true, why keep bringing up these facts, which probably had to do with the limited amount of time they were given? Do you see any EF’s TODAY which are done that quickly?

 

[AwGusTeen]

And someone with a Bachelor’s in biology cannot call himself a biologist?

How about someone with a Bachelor’s in engineering?
Can he call himself an engineer?

snip…

Only if he/she does two years as an Engineer In Training (EIT) under a licensed Professional Engineer AND passes the State Board Exams in the particular field of expertise.

Pax!

 

[crazzeto]

I’m listening to this now with some skeptisim, I’m hoping he doesn’t go where I think he might go.

OK, yeah Vorris went exactly where I thought he was going… I agree with some points here and there, but I generally disagree with the tone and message (that the Trinitine Mass is valid as opposed to N.O.).

 

[Ockham]

OK, yeah Vorris went exactly where I thought he was going… I agree with some points here and there, but I generally disagree with the tone and message (that the Trinitine Mass is valid as opposed to N.O.).

He stated quite clearly that the NO is valid.