Michael Voris: Weapons of 'MASS' Destruction

[Student09]

OK, yeah Vorris went exactly where I thought he was going… I agree with some points here and there, but I generally disagree with the tone and message (that the Trinitine Mass is valid as opposed to N.O.).

Actually, he repeatedly emphasized that the N.O. is valid.

Having watched it, I agree with Br. JR that it would have been better if he had had Alice von Hildebrand or someone like that on the show. Also, I believe he misquoted her, because he said that she had said that Paul VI reacted “angrily” to Dietrich’s requests. Whereas, in this interview from Latin Mass Magazine, she said:

I shall never forget the private audience we had with Paul VI just before the end of the Council. It was on June 21, 1965. As soon as my husband started pleading with him to condemn the heresies that were rampant, the Pope interrupted him with the words, “Lo scriva, lo scriva.” (“Write it down.”) A few moments later, for the second time, my husband drew the gravity of the situation to the Pope’s attention. Same answer. His Holiness received us standing. It was clear that the Pope was feeling very uncomfortable. The audience lasted only a few minutes. Paul VI immediately gave a sign to his secretary, Fr. Capovilla, to bring us rosaries and medals. We then went back to Florence where my husband wrote a long document (unpublished today) that was delivered to Paul VI just the day before the last session of the Council. It was September of 1965. After reading my husband’s document, he said to my husband’s nephew, Dieter Sattler, who had become the German ambassador to the Holy See, that he had read the document carefully, but that “it was a bit harsh.”

latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SU_Hildebran.html

Ok, this is very different from the pope being “angry” and saying “take your concerns out of here” as Michael Voris rendered it. I’m sure the change was not intentional, but it does show a lack of accuracy and a certain bias.

 

[zab]

Actually, he repeatedly emphasized that the N.O. is valid.

Having watched it, I agree with Br. JR that it would have been better if he had had Alice von Hildebrand or someone like that on the show. Also, I believe he misquoted her, because he said that she had said that Paul VI reacted “angrily” to Dietrich’s requests. Whereas, in this interview from Latin Mass Magazine, she said:

Ok, this is very different from the pope being “angry” and saying “take your concerns out of here” as Michael Voris rendered it. I’m sure the change was not intentional, but it does show a lack of accuracy and a certain bias.

How did Vorris misquote Alice von Hildebrand? What quote did he give? It seems to me that the quote you provided supports Vorris’s remark that the pope reacted “angrily”. He certainly did not react happily or in an accepting way.

 

[lizaanne]

Ok, this is very different from the pope being “angry” and saying “take your concerns out of here” as Michael Voris rendered it. I’m sure the change was not intentional, but it does show a lack of accuracy and a certain bias.

Michael interviewed Mrs. von Hildebrand personally for this show. His remarks are taken from his personal discussions with her, not from a book.

~Liza

 

[JReducation]

I believe that the problems that Mr. Voris has are several and they can easily be rectified. I’m not sure why his organization does not do so.

1. In these videos he’s not really doing evangelization. They are really commentaries that he is doing. They need to make sure that the general population know this. I did the research and is organization has only two researchers and neither are theologians. If you want well researched work go to Catholic Answers AAA, EWTN, Priests for Life, Thomas More Society, Chesterton Society, Johan Paul II Institute and there are some very good diocesan websites too.
2. He needs to bring these videos into some harmonic resonance with their main ministry which actually provides very good materials. I’m speaking about St. Michael’s ministry.
3. These videos always sound like he’s picking a fight. If wants to do that, it’s fine. But don’t market yourself as a theologian. First of all, he’s not a theologian and secondly it is beneath the dignity of a theologian to do such a thing. The Church does not accept that from licensed theologians. That’s why many have lost their licenses. When you put STB after your name, it leads the public to believe that you’re speaking with some authority, meaning that you have the Church’s permission.
4. He comes from the world of communication and he’s an excellent communicator. He was an excellent journalist in his day. It would be very helpful to the man in the pew to have someone with his skills do journalism like Raymond Arroyo does it. Mr. Arroyo does not agree with everything that the bishops do either. But he is very respectful of them. He does not call them out. He engages them in dialogue. He invites them to talk and they like talking to him.
5. As Chesterton would say, regardless of how the Ordinary Form came to be, God brings out what he wants in the end. If the Holy Father says that after all is said and done, the Novus Ordo is now the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite, then it is and we have to live with that.
6. He has to be more balanced when speaking about the bishops. He often speaks as if there is no one who knows how to run the Church except him. We have very good bisohps in this country. He does not highlight them too often, unless they do something that he likes. That’s not fair and balanced journalism. The bishops must do what the Church likes, not what the people like. I have never seen him speak to bishops such as: Archbishop Chaput, Cardinal O’Malley, Archbishop Wenski, Archbishop Dolan, Cardinal George, Bishop Galeone, and those are just a few that come to mind who are very good men doing some good work for the Church.
7. There are also very good and authorized theologians, apologists, philosophers and lawyers out there who could probably explain some things more clearly than he can: Dr. Alice Hildegrand (philosopher), Mother Agnes (theologian), Sister Maximilia (canon lawyer), Fr. Benedict G. (psychologist), Fr. Mitch Pacwa (Philosopher), Dr. Scott Hahn (theologian), Fr. Micheal Scanlon (theologian), Fr. Brian Mulladay (theologian), Fr. Alfred Cioffi (medical ethicist and theologian), Fr. Frank Pavone (pro-life activist), Dr. Alveda King (theologian) and the list is long. These are some of the leading voices in the American Church today. They are very sound and balanced people.

The point is that there are many people involved in the trenches who are excellent speakers on these issues and he never presents them.

Just a word of advice. It is very dangerous to say that someone is on the way to canonization. That should never be said untilt he person is dead. We can certainly admire someone for their virtuous life. That’s OK.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[crazzeto]

JReduction, thank you for your excellent thoughts… You most excellently expressed the many feelings I’ve been having about Vorris. Perhaps he appeals to some, and I admit he makes good points on some occation… But I almost always disagree with the package taken as a whole. I’m personally desubscribing from “Real Catholic TV” and just leaving Vorris out of my information loop.

 

[Ockham]

I believe that the problems that Mr. Voris has are several and they can easily be rectified. I’m not sure why his organization does not do so.

That’s quite a lengthy list of critques and of course you are entitled to them. However, as a Catholic and American citizen, Mr. Voris is entitled to his opinions and avenues to share them. Perhaps at this point in Church history we need members of the laity speaking out as so many of the clergy have been silent or vague on the V2 changes. Even Pope Benedict XVI has changed his tone since attaining the highest office. If you read what he said while Cardinal Ratzinger, Mr. Voris is making many of the same points.

 

[JReducation]

Michael interviewed Mrs. von Hildebrand personally for this show. His remarks are taken from his personal discussions with her, not from a book.

~Liza

He makes a reference to that in his presentation. It would have been more effective to show the clip of the interview. Because we don’t know what she said or how she said it. We know what he heard. I have heard her speak on this subject. She is very good, but she is also very gentle and very respectful. She was interviewd by Fr. Benedict G on this very subject and her remarks are on target, but she disagreed that there was some conspiracy. She explained that she felt that there was an extreme effort to simplify the liturgy to the point that it was overdone.

In her interview with Fr. Benedict G. she did mention the Protestant observers at Vatican II. They were there at the invitation of Pope John XXIII. She and Fr. Benedict G. also said that Protestants have been doing work for the Vatican since the late 1800s under Pope Pius X. They are not the only non-Catholic doing work for the Vatican, serving as advisors, academic resources and even pastoral associates. She was not concerned about their presence. The Protestants who were invited were scholars who were very good at their work and knowledgeable about Catholic faith.

We have to get away from the idea that we know a lot about Protestantism, but they know nothing about Catholicism. That’s just not true. Many still serve as advisors to the Vatican and to the Church in many posts. They are very good at what they do and very respectful of the Church. They are not there to bring down the Church. They are there because they like what they do, be it theology, science, culture, politics, or other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[roadsend]

Only if he/she does two years as an Engineer In Training (EIT) under a licensed Professional Engineer AND passes the State Board Exams in the particular field of expertise.

Pax!

Well I worked a heck of a lot of construction jobs where the Project Engineer for both the contractor and the owner had a B.S. in engineering and no further formal education.

 

[JReducation]

That’s quite a lengthy list of critques and of course you are entitled to them. However, as a Catholic and American citizen, Mr. Voris is entitled to his opinions and avenues to share them. Perhaps at this point in Church history we need members of the laity speaking out as so many of the clergy have been silent or vague on the V2 changes. Even Pope Benedict XVI has changed his tone since attaining the highest office. If you read what he said while Cardinal Ratzinger, Mr. Voris is making many of the same points.

Mr. Voris can make those points. He just cannot lead others to believe that he is a Catholic Apologist or a Catholic Theologian. As long as the listener understands that this is a private citizen who is not commissioned by the Church or recognized by the Church, there is nothing wrong.

The list that I make are suggestions that would make his service more effective. I have not suggested that he not discuss any of these subjects.

As to Pope Benedict, you have to understand that as Cardinal Ratzinger he had one perspective. As pope he has a much broader perspective because he’s privy to many things that he did not know before. He can get either tougher or he can step back a little. No pope is ever the same man that he was when he was a Cardinal. Your worldview changes, because you’re looking at the world from a different window.

On your other point, we the faithful can speak out on anything that we want as long as we know that we’re just talking. We have no power to change anything and we are bound to obey. The role of the laity is to change the world in the market place, not change Church policies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Well I worked a heck of a lot of construction jobs where the Project Engineer for both the contractor and the owner had a B.S. in engineering and no further formal education.

This is off track, but there are fields where you may not use the title unless you meet certain requirements. Engineering is one of them. You can be a project engineer. You are not AN engineer.

It’s like accounting. You’re not an accountant until you pass the examination. Medicine, you’re a doctor of medicine, not a phyisician until you pass the exam.

The same is true for a theologian. You are a graduate of theology, but not a theologian until you get the license. You can get into serious ecclesial trouble for marketing yourself as a Catholic theologian without the license. People will believe what you say is supported by the Church. When they find out that it’s not, they turn on you and then what do you do?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Third_Day]

I’ve heard this before. If these are the two worse possible abuses to the TLM then compared to what we’ve seen in the NO things were much better off then. 75% of Catholics went to the TLM when it was the only Mass whether Father was tippsy or not.

My point is that there were abuses in the TLM before Vatican II but no one knew since the liturgy is silent. There still could be today but now one knows except the priest.
The abuses in the NO have been horrible but they have not been widespread and I believe things are getting better and will continue to do so.

 

[Ockham]

Mr. Voris can make those points. He just cannot lead others to believe that he is a Catholic Apologist or a Catholic Theologian. As long as the listener understands that this is a private citizen who is not commissioned by the Church or recognized by the Church, there is nothing wrong.

I don’t recall him ever making the suggestion he is officially sanctioned by the Church.

The list that I make are suggestions that would make his service more effective. I have not suggested that he not discuss any of these subjects.

Then you should email him directly.

The role of the laity is to change the world in the market place, not change Church policies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The laity have been quite active in changing the Church these past forty years. It would have been nice for more people to have stood up against them. We most likely wouldn’t be in such a mess today if the faithful obeyed directives from the top office.

 

[Third_Day]

=JReducation;6907546]I. When you put STB after your name, it leads the public to believe that you’re speaking with some authority, meaning that you have the Church’s permission.

According to his website Voris has a Sacred Theology Baccalaureate (STB) from Sacred Heart Major Seminary/Angelicum in Rome

 

[JReducation]

JReduction, thank you for your excellent thoughts… You most excellently expressed the many feelings I’ve been having about Vorris. Perhaps he appeals to some, and I admit he makes good points on some occation… But I almost always disagree with the package taken as a whole. I’m personally desubscribing from “Real Catholic TV” and just leaving Vorris out of my information loop.

I believe that Mr. Voris is a good man. I have never heard him say something that I could say is heresy or an outright lie. I also believe that he wants to do well for the Church. We must never fall into the sin of dismissing someone because they are not our flavor. I’m not saying that you’re doing this. I’m saying this as a general piece of advise on charity.

I have an excellent example of this. St. Francis of Assisi did not like St. Anthony’s style. When St. Anthony asked him for permission to teach theology to our brothers, St. Francis gave permission. He did was not dismissive of his talents. Anthony joined the order in Lisbon and was sent to Padua. He had never met Father Francis. He was very excited about going to Assisi to the General Chapter. We wanted to meet his spiritual father. To avoid a conflict, Francis would not speak to him. Anthony went home without ever being introduced to Francis. He went home very sad. Neither ever spoke a negative word about each other. That’s how respectful people deal with differences. They accept the talents of the other and their authority, without the negative bite.

We have to accept Mr. Voris’ talents. But if he has a style that makes us uncomfortable, we do not have to engage with him. Those who want to say that we have to listen to him and admire him are incorrect in doing so. What we may not do is say things about him that are uncharitable.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

He certainly did not react happily or in an accepting way.

That’s the gist of it. Many remember Paul VI mostly for his remark about “the smoke of Satan” being rampant in the sanctuary, or words to that effect. I would say that’s definitely being angry, but that’s me.

 

[Ockham]

But if he has a style that makes us uncomfortable, we do not have to engage with him. Those who want to say that we have to listen to him and admire him are incorrect in doing so. What we may not do is say things about him that are uncharitable.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Who has said that anyone has to listen to him? I’m sure you realize no one has to listen to you either.

 

[JReducation]

According to his website Voris has a Sacred Theology Baccalaureate (STB) from Sacred Heart Major Seminary/Angelicum in Rome

Yes he does. That does not make him a theologian. He was a seminarian. You must have an STD, a mandatum and a license to be a Catholic theologian. Sometimes, the STL is sufficient, depending on the branch of theology in which you specialize. An STB is the ecclesial equivalent to the academic M.Div. The courses are more research oriented. The assumption is that you’re going on to the STL and the STD. Though an M.Div can go on for a D.Div. or D.D.

Many religious, deacons, bishops and priests have STB, STL, STD. But unless you ask for the mandatum and the license you are not a Catholic Theologian. It’s like having an MD. You are a Doctor of Medicine. You become physician when you get your license to practice medicine.

You can also be a theologian in one diocese and not in another, since the mandatum is granted by the local Ordinary. If you’re a religious you can get ask for the mandatum from your abbot or your major superior. This carries with you wherever your order goes.

You see the difference?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Who has said that anyone has to listen to him? I’m sure you realize no one has to listen to you either.

May I ask where this hostility came from?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

To be a Catholic theologian you must meet certain criteria.

1. Have a doctorate degree in theology that is recognized by the Church.

1. Have a mandatum from the bishop, an abbot or a religious superior

1. Have the permission of the Church to use the title “Catholic Theologian”.

Even there, those who have all the above are not experts in all branches of theology. You only get it for the one branch that you majored in.

That does not mean that you’ll be a genius either.

This is true. Paul VI assembled his best theologians to discuss ABC and after they failed to vote against it, had to issue the Humanae Vitae to clarify the matter.

 

[Ockham]

May I ask where this hostility came from?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What hostility?

Are you going to show where someone said we have to listen to either Michael Voris or yourself?