F
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No response? Maybe this will help:
Z
Zooey
Guest
There is no verse or passage which says that Christians are exhorted or taught to go on the internet & whap folks over the head with their personal interpretation of Scripture either.Please show me chapter & verse for this.
Precisely!!!
J
justasking4
Guest
Is not this discussion about praying to angels and saints? Everyone has a personal interpretation of the verses and passages in the Scriptures. The question is: can praying to angels and dead people be supported by the Scriptures? If you think so, please provide the chapter and verse so we can discuss it.Please show me chapter & verse for this.
A
adrift
Guest
I did but you ignored it.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Anyone have a problem with the communion of saints?
St. Michael the Archangel is one of many of them…
Again, I ask- why single him out?
Z
Zooey
Guest
Read a bit more carefully, yean; the verses have all ready been posted!!
We have been discussing them for some time now. ye would seem to be the only one here, as has nae noticed the postings…
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
C
clmowry
Guest
L
ltbpoe43
Guest
When you need a defender and a protector to intercede for your needs - who better to call than the most precious defender and protector of all - St. Michael the Archangel.
C
clmowry
Guest
You don’t really expect an answer do you? When you don’t have an answer apparently the correct response is to change the subject.
Chuck
Chuck
F
Fidelis
Guest
It’s not always “apparently the correct response”. Just giving everyone a fair opportunity to respond to what should be an easy question.
I think by now they have, however, so I’ll quit.:tiphat:
M
Mordocai
Guest
To claim we are not to pray to the saints and ask their intercession because it does not seem to be in scripture assumes that
1.) That the Scriptures are all God wanted to give us for Divine Revelation
2.) That they’re sufficient
In order to continue the discussion, one would necessarily have to prove those assumptions using only Scripture.
I can simply reply that, using your own criteria for determining doctrine (scripture alone, as this is what you’re doing with saints and angels) you must show me where it says in the scriptures that the Scriptures all ALL God wanted to give us for Divine Revelation and that they’re sufficient completely.
Until you do this, a discussion can’t continue, since we need to use your own criteria the way you intend to use them. But to do that, we must trust your own reasoning at coming to the conclusion you came to about saintly intercession.
So alright, how do we know we can trust the Bible alone.
And please please please! I know that you can (so can I) point out many verses on the effectiveness of God’s Word, or the power of His Word, or even it’s ability to teach! But this is not what I am asking. Even the Apostles were fully capable of teaching God’s Word (without them, we wouldn’t have the New Testament!)
But did the Apostles teach the Bible?
And so please show the verse(s) in the Bible that demonstate Scriptures completely and total sufficiency, not just its effectiveness in teaching.
I do hope you can provide what I’m asking.
God Bless
Mordocai
1.) That the Scriptures are all God wanted to give us for Divine Revelation
2.) That they’re sufficient
In order to continue the discussion, one would necessarily have to prove those assumptions using only Scripture.
I can simply reply that, using your own criteria for determining doctrine (scripture alone, as this is what you’re doing with saints and angels) you must show me where it says in the scriptures that the Scriptures all ALL God wanted to give us for Divine Revelation and that they’re sufficient completely.
Until you do this, a discussion can’t continue, since we need to use your own criteria the way you intend to use them. But to do that, we must trust your own reasoning at coming to the conclusion you came to about saintly intercession.
So alright, how do we know we can trust the Bible alone.
And please please please! I know that you can (so can I) point out many verses on the effectiveness of God’s Word, or the power of His Word, or even it’s ability to teach! But this is not what I am asking. Even the Apostles were fully capable of teaching God’s Word (without them, we wouldn’t have the New Testament!)
But did the Apostles teach the Bible?
And so please show the verse(s) in the Bible that demonstate Scriptures completely and total sufficiency, not just its effectiveness in teaching.
I do hope you can provide what I’m asking.
God Bless
Mordocai
J
justasking4
Guest
What is the difference?
So we agree then that the Scriptures alone are said to be inspired-inerrant? Is this not what the Catholic church teaches about the Scriptures?
That may be but do not they claim what the benefits and promises of the Scriptures are for the believer?
What else besides the Word of God claims this?
Actually the honesty issue has to do with the Catholic side. it claims that its Marian doctrines are based on Scripture when it is readily apparent that they are not. This is just one of many examples that could be produced.
T
thistle
Guest
If you really want to know then read this:
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp
N
narrowpath
Guest
In the book of Revelation, the angels an elders in Heaven act as intercessors and offer up the prayers of he saints in the form of incense. Also, don’t you ask people to pray for you? If so, why do you do that, if you can just pray to God?
U
Usagi
Guest
justasking4,
When you use the term “pray to,” what does that mean to you?
The vast majority of the time, when Catholics pray to a saint or angel, they are asking that saint or angel to pray with and for them to God, just as they might ask the same of a fellow Christian on Earth. We pray, in the sense of speaking mentally to someone not immediately visible, because the saints and angels are not, in fact, immediately visible. We do not worship them or place them on the same level as God, though.
Even in cases where the saint or angel is directly asked for aid, we are not presuming that the saint or angel is somehow independent of God and is going to give us help that God would not. Rather, because of known incidents in their lives, some saints and angels are associated with particular aspects of life. Michael is a protector and a warrior against demonic forces, for example, based on the accounts of his deeds in the Bible. St. Monica prayed for years for the conversion of her wayward son, the future St. Augustine, and so she is believed to have a special concern for other parents of straying children. Thus, a prayer (especially an older, traditional one) might implore St. Michael directly for protection, or St. Monica for help with a son or daughter’s loss of faith. However, the understanding is still that the saint or angel would only be doing God’s will, and has no power except what He might grant. So, really, it’s still a request for the saint or angel to ask God about the issue.
If you’re wondering how we can be sure of communicating successfully with a non-omniscient being in Heaven, it is of course God who hears the prayer and (if He so wishes) passes it on to the saint or angel. For the human, Christian saints, the Body of Christ notion is useful here. When I feel a fly on the back of my neck and smack at it, my neck has not actually communicated directly with my arm, for it has no means of doing so. Fortunately, they are connected via the brain, which takes the sensory message from the neck and relays a motor impulse to the arm in response. Likewise, I do not directly have any means of being heard by a human in Heaven, nor have they necessarily any direct means of hearing thoughts addressed to them. Fortunately, earthly Christians and heavenly Christians are still members of the one Body of Christ, and the Head of that Body is the omniscient and omnipotent God Himself. He hears every thought, and can direct it to its intended recipient.
Why would He do such a thing, instead of simply dealing with each prayer directly (and being mighty annoyed at the ones that aren’t addressed directly to Him)? We see in the Scriptures that He wants His children to pray for and aid each other, and we believe that applies to those in Heaven just as much as those on Earth. He could, of course, repel demonic attack on a Christian without sending Michael or another angel, and He could stir the heart of a straying son without ever getting St. Monica involved. He could also have directly commanded Pharaoh to liberate His chosen people, or granted the Ethiopian eunuch a proper understanding of the Scriptures. But He chose to send Moses and Philip respectively. As far as we can tell, it pleases Him when we act as His agents in helping each other, and even seek out each other for help as fellow believers. He even works miracles through human instruments from time to time. Again, we just apply all that knowledge gathered from the Scriptures to our brothers and sisters in Heaven as well as those here with us.
Prayer to angels and saints is never directly commanded or even mentioned in Scripture, it’s true. And certainly we all have direct access to the Father through the Son, and even the indwelling Holy Spirit to do our praying for us when the words don’t come. The practice may never have occurred to that first generation of Christians. (John does portray the Christians in heaven a couple times in Revelation. He does not address the matter of praying to them, but some are pictured as carrying “the prayers of the saints” (believers on earth) to God, and those identified as the martyrs constantly implore God to avenge them. So heavenly Christians actively “doing stuff” and having some interest in or connection to events transpiring on Earth seems to have been a concept present by the end of the New Testament era.
Once that first generation, especially the Apostles themselves, began to die off, I suspect that the idea of venerating and imploring the aid of those who had “finished the race” caught on pretty quick, and writings from the catacombs of Rome seem to suggest I am right. “The prayer of a righteous man availeth much,” so who better to ask for prayers than those who have already been perfected and now dwell forever in God’s presence?
Usagi
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