Michael

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There is no verse or passage that a Christian is ever exhorted or taught to pray to Mary, an angel or someone who has died. All prayers are to be only to God and never to a created being.
the other poster had asked for you to provide the passage that exhorts the Christian to own his own bible.
i would add to that, please show the verse that exhorts the individual Christian to interpret the words contained (or not contained therein) for doctrine rather than listening to Church authority. Christ or the Apostles never gave such authority to the indidual believers, but to the Bishops (successors to the Apostles)

i pray that you will see the paralell between you admonishing Catholics for praying to saints and angels when it is not explicitly mentioned in the bible and a Catholic admonishing you for assuming that it must be. it is an interesting proposition that the other poster posed, where is the verse that encourages us to have a personal copy of the Bible. was this the case in the early Church?
the printing press came around when? 1500s? im actually not sure, so i am truly asking.
if it is God’s Will for all of us to personally interpret scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, please show the verse (this is my request, not the other poster’s) that has Jesus or the Apostles commission each individual believer to come up with correct doctrine on his own.
all the verses i know about speak of “hold fast to what has been handed on either by word of mouth or letter” and to submit to the correct authority and to not be swayed by heretics who claim their own personal interpretation.

i also pray (truly, i hope you will hear my out) that you will understand that the Bible is not self sufficient; it doesn’t even claim to be. Jesus came to teach specific things, some of which are not contained in the Gospels (the end of John’s Gospel says this) and since this is true, holding correct doctrine must be immensely important to Him.

just some thoughts, i do hope you can find the verse that exhorts us to own a bible or to come onto the internet and join a forum 🤷
as the other poster had said, the Bible is not a catechism to guide us on what to do in any given situation.

one last question:
Do you think Peter, James, and John, had they conversed with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor, would have been chastised by Jesus? Do you think it is possible that they in fact did converse with them? Perhaps that is how they realized that it was in fact Moses and Elijah? (else how would they have known it was Moses and Elijah outside of another revelation by God)
If God does not want us to pray to those in Heavenly glory, why did Jesus, in a sense, provide the “temptation” to do so ?(remember Moses and Elijah were heroes and saints to the Apostles, men they really looked up to growing up as young jews no doubt learning the Scriptures)

is it explicit? no
does it make me wonder? i should think so. 🙂

(cont)
 
Don’t you think it is within God’s power to will that His Word be communicated down through the centuries through the written and oral word? Is it possible? Is he capable of doing so?
if so, perhaps seeking saintly intercession is one thing passed down through Sacred Tradition since it does not oppose the Written Word. (if you are thinking of the verse that says Jesus is the one mediator, Catholic doctrine has always held that the saints only intercede because they participate in His intercession, just like a protestant is not opposed to those still on earth interceding for their friends and family on particular matters, so those who are fully alive in Jesus Christ in glory are not suddenly seperated from His Body, the Church, but are more intimately united with Jesus and thus better able to help us. the prayer of a righteous man is powerful, how much more powerful is the intercession of an angel or saint who is perfected in holiness?
in fact, your intercession on these forums to us Catholics is either God reaching out to us or it is not God reaching out to us.

God is not reaching out to us through you to tell us to stop requesting the intercession of His precious sons and daughters seated closed to Him in Heaven. Quite the opposite, God is asking you to see that His Church is a family, of which He is the head. He does not want us to ignore our sisters and brothers.

Do you really think you have a correct interpretation on all matters Scriptural? Isn’t it important to Christ to have correct doctrine? Why did He come to teach specific things if it is not really that important? Is there a verse that says anything about "it is not necessary to have correct doctrine?’ All the verses I know are Paul or someone chiding the heretics and begging the faithful to remain faithful to their teaching. Jesus, Who is truth, calls out to you and to me and all of us, remain in my Word.
I hope that you will reflect on whether or not you are doing that in the matters that He has set down. It is important to Christ since He taught certains things and obviously meant specific things by them.
Some examples, Is baptism necessary? yes or no? Is Jesus truly present in the Eucharist? yes or no? Is the Bible the only rule of faith? yes or no? is salvation assured? yes or no? is faith all you need to be saved? yes or no?

You do not need to reply to these questions, im sure you have your opinions, but i challenge you as your brother in Christ with this question:

Are you right? And how do you check to see if you are right or not? The early Christians had it simple; they asked an Apostle. With even more division today, does it not make sense that a loving Savior would provide His Church with protection from error so that the faithful might look and not be dismayed? Jesus promised that He would not leave us orphans and would not abandon us.
The early Church was divided, it is more divided now.
The Bible alone has proven insufficient, and in truth, the only defense that a Protestant can offer is “Well that other stuff doesn’t really matter”
But I ask you to search your soul and realize, it obviously mattered to Christ; if we are to be imitators of Christ, shouldn’t it concern us just as much as it concerned the Lord Jesus?

May God bless you
Mordocai
 
Indeed. There are actually a few examples of inspired prayers addressed specifically to angels in the Bible:
Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! (Psalm 103:21 RSV)
Is the psalmist praying to angels here or is he making statements about what angels should do? Is he speaking literally or figuratively? Go on to verse 22. How are the “works of His” to praise Him?
SIZE=2]Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host! (Psalm 148:2 RSV)
Again the same kind of question. If you read verse 3 for example, is the sun and moon to praise Him?
SIZE=2]Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:58 NAB)

I don’t have a verse 58. Did you mean 3:28?
If angels can be collectively addressed in prayer, as indicated above, there is no reason to suppose that they cannot similarly be addressed in prayer individually by name
The problem is that these verses don’t teach anything about praying to angels. If anything, these are figures of speech and not meant to be taken literally

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part 1
the other poster had asked for you to provide the passage that exhorts the Christian to own his own bible.
i would add to that, please show the verse that exhorts the individual Christian to interpret the words contained (or not contained therein) for doctrine rather than listening to Church authority.
 
part 2
one last question:
Do you think Peter, James, and John, had they conversed with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor, would have been chastised by Jesus? Do you think it is possible that they in fact did converse with them? Perhaps that is how they realized that it was in fact Moses and Elijah? (else how would they have known it was Moses and Elijah outside of another revelation by God)
If God does not want us to pray to those in Heavenly glory, why did Jesus, in a sense, provide the “temptation” to do so ?(remember Moses and Elijah were heroes and saints to the Apostles, men they really looked up to growing up as young jews no doubt learning the Scriptures)

is it explicit? no
does it make me wonder? i should think so. 🙂
(cont)
Read the context for this passage. Is Jesus praying to Moses etc or is something else going on? Do we see even Peter, James or John offering prayers to them there? Do we see them refer to this in their letters as a example why they can pray to them?
 
Is the psalmist praying to angels here or is he making statements about what angels should do? Is he speaking literally or figuratively? Go on to verse 22. How are the “works of His” to praise Him?
Your contention that angels should not be addressed directly is clearly contrary to the Bible verses I mentioned earlier; even fallen angels are addressed directly in the Bible:

But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I charge you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour. (Acts 16:18)

Do not be surprised that even the irrational works of God are addressed directly. Jesus said:

6And the Lord said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, `Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. (Luke 17:6)

23Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. (Mark 11:23)
I don’t have a verse 58. Did you mean 3:28?
Daniel 3:58 is a deuterocanonical verse found in the ancient Greek Septuagint favored by the first Christians but lacking in modern Hebrew Bibles and the Protestant Bibles that follow the modern Hebrew.
The problem is that these verses don’t teach anything about praying to angels. If anything, these are figures of speech and not meant to be taken literally
This is an interesting but unfounded personal interpretation.
 
Your contention that angels should not be addressed directly is clearly contrary to the Bible verses I mentioned earlier; even fallen angels are addressed directly in the Bible:

But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I charge you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour. (Acts 16:18)

Demons do exist but Paul is not praying to one here either but rebuking it. This has nothing to do with praying to angels as taught by your church.
Do not be surprised that even the irrational works of God are addressed directly. Jesus said:
What are you referring to here?
 
The scriptures do teach that they are adequate for us. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Scriptures never appeal to traditions that can do make us also adequate and equiped as the Scriptures do.
Actually 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says the Scriptures are profitable not “adequate” or sufficient. BIG difference.
Do [you] claim and believe that the doctrines, traditions and practices are inspired and inerrant?
Nope. But *where does the Bible say *everything that Christians do have to come from the Bible or other inspired or inerrant source? Just show me and I’ll be happy.😃
See 2 Timothy 3:16-17. You also may want to read Psalm 119 and Hebrews 4:12 that shows the power and authority of the Scriptures.
Already addressed the false claim for for the first verse. Similarly, Ps 119 and Heb 4:12 say nothing about the sufficiency of Scriptures or that they are meant to be a comprehensive compendium of the Faith. 🙂
Remember its your church that is making the claim that it right to pray to angels and the like. Since the Scriptures never teach such a thing, you must turn to what men teach without any grounding in the Scriptures.
I don’t know how many times I can’t repeat this without you addressing it, but here it is again:

**If you are going to challenge Catholic teachings with the question “Where is that in the Bible,” you are making the presumption that the Bible is a comprehensive compendium of the Faith. If you are asking me to answer a question based on that false presumption, you are going to have to prove it to me first. So I ask again, show me in the Bible where it makes this claim for itself. If you can’t, at least be honest enough to acknowledge it. **
hope this helps
Me too! 😃
 
This came through my email but i don’t see it on the forumm. Here is my response.

The scriptures do teach that they are adequate for us. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Scripotures never appeal to traditions that can do make us also adequate and equiped as the Scriptures do.

Do claim and believe that the doctrines, traditions and practices are inspired and inerrant?

See 2 Timothy 3:16-17. You also may want to read Psalm 119 and Hebrews 4:12 that shows the power and authority of the Scriptures.

hope this helps
What Scriptures where being referred to.? I know it states all scriptures but as you know he was referring to the old testament.
James 5:16 instructs us to pray for one another. I ask others to pray for me why would I not seek out those who are closest to God?
 
Why do Catholics pray to the archangel Michael? From what I have read about Michael he is the protector of Israel … not a personal Rambo to be used at everyones beck and call.
The communion of saints is hard for some to understand.

Once you understand that there is an eternal soul, it gets easier.

But, if you would like to think it is of no value to ask for Saint Michael’s protection and intercession, why single him out?

I am surprised you did not list all the saints we pray to.

Why not ask about the others too?

We have the Church Millitant, the Church suffering and the Church Triumphant.

Saints in all stages I guess.
 
Hello,
Is the psalmist praying to angels here or is he making statements about what angels should do? Is he speaking literally or figuratively? Go on to verse 22. How are the “works of His” to praise Him?

Again the same kind of question. If you read verse 3 for example, is the sun and moon to praise Him?
But all this it seemed well for the Saviour to do; that since men had failed to know His Providence, revealed in the Universe, and had failed to perceive His Godhead shown in creation, they might at any rate from the works of His body recover their sight, and through Him receive an idea of the knowledge of the Father, inferring, as I said before, from particular cases His Providence over the whole. For who that saw His power over evil spirits, or who that saw the evil spirits confess that He was their Lord, will hold his mind any longer in doubt whether this be the Son and Wisdom and Power of God? For He made even the creation break silence: in that even at His death, marvellous to relate, or rather at His actual trophy over death—the Cross I mean—all creation was confessing that He that was made manifest and suffered in the body was not man merely, but the Son of God and Saviour of all. For the sun hid His face, and the earth quaked and the mountains were rent: all men were awed. Now these things showed that Christ on the Cross was God, while all creation was His slave, and was witnessing by its fear to its Master’s presence. Thus, then, God the Word showed Himself to men by His works. (De Incarnatione, Athanasius, 19)
 
Hello,

O glorious Prince Saint Michael, chief and commander of the heavenly hosts, guardian of souls, vanquisher of rebel spirits, servant in the house of the Divine King, and our admirable conductor, thou who dost shine with excellence and superhuman virtue, vouchsafe to deliver us from all evil, who turn to thee with confidence, and enable us by thy gracious protection to serve God more and more faithfully every day. Amen.

Almighty and everlasting God, Who by a prodigy of Goodness and a merciful desire for the salvation of all men, has appointed the most glorious Archangel Saint Michael, Prince of Thy Church, make us worthy, we beseech Thee, to be delivered by his powerful protection from all our enemies, that none of them may harass us at the hour of our death, but that we may be conducted by him into the august presence of Thy Divine Majesty. This we beg through the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.

From the Chaplet of Saint Michael
 
Hello,

O Most glorious Prince, Michael the Archangel, be mindful of us, here and everywhere: pray always unto the Son of God for us, Alleluia, Alleluia.

V. In the sight of Angels I will sing to Thee, O God.
R. I will worship facing Thy holy temple and confess Thy name.

O God, who in a marvelous order hast established the ministries of angels and of men, mercifully grant that as Thy holy Angels ever do Thee service in heaven, so at all times they may succor us here upon earth. Through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

From the Office for the Feast of Saint Michael the Archangel
 
Hello,

O Most glorious Prince, Saint Michael the Archangel, I, thy most humble servant, salute thee through the most beloved Heart of Jesus Christ which I lovingly offer for the increase of thy joy and thy glory. I give thanks to God for the blessedness which He brings to thee and with which He wishes to honor and exalt thee above all the other Angels. I especially commend myself to thy care in life and death. Be with me now and always, especially at the end of my life. Kindly console me, strengthen me, and protect me. Obtain for me an increase in faith, hope, and charity. Do not permit me to stray from the holy faith, nor fall into the snare of desperation, nor to take for granted good works, which I am engaged in through the grace of God. Obtain for me pardon of my sins, humility, patience and the other virtues, true perseverance in goodness, and the final grace that I may give glory to God with thee forever. Amen.

From Orate Fratres, P. Gaudentius
 
Hello,

O Prince of the heavenly host, Saint Michael, thou who cast into hell proud Lucifer with all his followers, thou who art defender and protector of the Church, thou who art protector of souls departing from this world, come to the aid of the People of God and defend the Church committed unto thee against all the snares of Satan. Help my soul which I now commend to thee against this same enemy. Protect me especially at the hour of my death, so that I may be admitted to the joys of paradise where I, with all the Angels, may praise God eternally. Amen.

From Orates Fratres
 
Hello,

O Jesus! life-spring of the soul!
The Father’s Power and Glory bright!
Thee with Angels we extol;
from Thee they draw their life and light.

Thy thousand, thousand hosts are spread,
embattled o’er the azure sky;
but Michael bears Thy standard dread,
and lifts the mighty Cross on high.

He in that sign the rebel powers
did with their dragon prince expel:
and hurled them from heaven’s high towers.
down like a thunderbolt to hell.

Grant us with Michael still, O Lord,
against the Prince of Pride to fight;
so may a crown be our reward,
before the Lamb’s pure throne of light.

To God the Father and the Son
and Holy Paraclete to Thee,
as evermore hath been before,
be glory through eternity. Amen.

From the Roman Breviary
 
Hello,

O Glorious Prince of the heavenly host, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in the battle and fearful warfare that we are waging against the principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the evil spirits. Come thou to the assistance of men, whom Almighty God created immortal, making them in His own image and likeness and redeeming them at a great price from the tyranny of Satan. Fight this day the battle of the Lord with thy legions of holy Angels, even as of old thou didst fight against Lucifer, the leader of the proud spirits and all his rebel angels, who were powerless to stand against thee, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast forth, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and satan, who seduces the whole world; and he was cast forth upon Earth, and his angels were sent with him.

But behold! the ancient enemy of mankind and a murderer from the beginning has been fiercely aroused. Changing himself into an angel of light, he goes about with the whole multitude of the wicked spirits to invade the earth and blot out the Name of God and of His Christ, to plunder, to slay, and to consign to eternal damnation the souls that have been destined for a crown of everlasting life. This wicked serpent, like an unclean torrent, pours into men of depraved minds and corrupt hearts the poison of his malice, the spirit of lying, impiety and blasphemy, and the deadly breath of impurity and every form of vice and iniquity.

Be favorable to Thy Church, the Bride of the Lamb without spot, whose enemies have filled to overflowing with gall and inebriated with wormwood. They have laid profane hands upon Her most sacred treasures. Where the See of the most blessed Peter and the Chair of Truth has been constituted as a light to the nations, there they have placed a throne of their abomination and impiety; so that with the Pastor struck, they may prevail to disperse the flock.

Therefore, most invincible Leader, be with the people of God against this spiritual wickedness and bring about victory. Thou art venerated by Holy Church as Her guard and patron; Thou art glorified as our defender against the impious powers of earth and of hell. Unto thee the Lord hath handed over the souls of the redeemed to be placed in happiness above. Entreat the God of peace, to obliterate satan beneath our feet, lest he prevail further to hold men captive, and to injure the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that the mercy of the Lord may swiftly overtake us, and apprehend the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and satan, and send him bound into the abyss, so that he may seduce the nations no more. Henceforth having been confided to thy escort and protection, we sacred ministers by our authority [if recited by a layman, or cleric who has not yet taken up the order of exorcist, say instead, "by the authority of Holy Mother Church ], do undertake to repel the infestations of diabolical deceit in the Name of Jesus Christ, Our God and Lord.

V. Behold the Cross of the Lord, depart from us, our adversaries.
R. The Lion of the tribe of Juda, root of David, has conquered.
V. Let Thy mercy be upon us Lord.
R. As much as we hope in Thee.
V. O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. And let my cry come unto Thee.

Let us pray
O God, and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we invoke Thy Holy Name, and we humbly implore Thy clemency so that, through the intercession of Mary, the Immaculate ever-Virgin Mother of God, of blessed Michael the Archangel, of blessed Joseph, the Spouse of the same blessed Virgin, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the Saints, Thou may deign to offer us aid against satan, and all the other unclean spirits, who wander through the world to injure the human race and to destroy souls. We ask this through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

By Leo XIII
 
Hello,

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

By Leo XIII
 
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