Michigan bishop inaugurates program to have chant at all parishes [CC]

[ARSpade]

All? Talk about “hyper emotional”!

A lot of the stuff I hear at some parishes just seems to be geared towards Boomers recapturing the sounds of the '70s.

Music that to me, at 30, is just old and lame. It’s basically bad old folk music and when you regularly listen to modern good folk music it sounds even worse. Sometimes I think the adage of “we need this music to bring in young people” means “I’ve forgotten that I stopped being young 40 years ago and this is what I liked then.”

“Modern” music also doesn’t fit at all with the vision of Vatican II, if you actually read the documents. So changes like this, to chant, polyphony, and Latin, are needed if we are to work with the hope and desire of the “Spirit of Vatican II”.

I would miss annoying my wife by singing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald when we do Gather Us In, though (which also shows it’s not just bad folk music, but derivative and unoriginal folk music).

 

[Usige]

I would miss annoying my wife by singing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald when we do Gather Us In, though (which also shows it’s not just bad folk music, but derivative and unoriginal folk music).

Thanks, ARSpade. Now every couple weeks I will find myself singing:
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called ‘gitche gumee’
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

Lots of talk here about hymns, but I’m pretty sure that the good bishop is talking about the Ordinary sections of the Mass: the Kyrie (Lord Have Mercy), the Gloria (Glory to God in the Highest), the Credo (I Believe), the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) and the Ite Missa Est (the Mass is Ended, Go in Peace). These will be sung in Latin. And most of us already know or can quickly learn the Latin musical settings for these Ordinary parts of the Mass.

Hymns are normally sung during the Processional, during Communion, and the during the Recessional portions of each Mass. They are an optional and unnecessary part of the liturgy. But that’s generally when hymns are sung.

My sense is that the Credo and the Ite Missa Est will not be sung by the congregation, rather the former will be recited by the people, and the latter will be sung by either the priest or the deacon because, despite the fact that it is technically part of the Ordinary, the Ite is not intended for congregational singing (the final response to the Ite, the Deo Gratias [Thanks be to God]) may be properly sung by the congregation.

I don’t think that hymn singing will be effected by the bishop’s changes.

 

[ProVobis]

What is wrong? It is NOT fact, it’s simply your opinion. Your subjective conclusion is that the “number of good hymns” could probably counted on one hand…so there are no more than 5 good hymns in this category? Maybe to you, but to claim this a fact that cannot be contested is absolutely ridiculous!

OTOH, if everyone can agree on those 5 good hymns, we’d be all set.

 

[TCEL]

I think this is good. I liked some of the modern hymns simply because I didn’t know any different, and I always had an attraction to God. There are a few I actually still like, but now I prefer the “older” style, though I had to develop some stamina for its different pace. To be fair, just because it’s old doesn’t mean its a winner or a great tune.

(If you must know, I still enjoy “I am the Bread of Life.” Pretty tune that could sound great with just chorale; it isn’t utilized to its potential. Good lyrics too. Hard to mess up Christ’s own words . )

 

[ProVobis]

Way to go!
Now here is a bishop who is finally implementing Vatican II as intended by the Council Fathers…

It’s actually more than that.

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Pope Paul VI gave permission for the selections in Jubilate Deo to be freely reprinted. The booklet was accompanied by a letter in which the Holy Father made this request of the bishops:

“Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them…. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Jubilate Deo contains simple chant settings in Latin of the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Agnus Dei. It also provides musical settings for the dialogues between priest and people, such as before the Preface, and the Ite Missa est, the response to the Prayer of the Faithful, and others.

An, expanded edition of Jubilate Deo was later issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1987.

Unfortunately, the faithful were not taught these chants, and it is rare to hear any music from this collection sung in parishes today.

Its Latin selections, since they form a minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant, would allow us to finally fulfill the provision of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which said that “steps should be taken enabling the faithful to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass belonging to them” (§54).

This is reiterated in the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM).

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

 

[Usige]

Lots of talk here about hymns, but I’m pretty sure that the good bishop is talking about the Ordinary sections of the Mass: the Kyrie (Lord Have Mercy), the Gloria (Glory to God in the Highest), the Credo (I Believe), the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) and the Ite Missa Est (the Mass is Ended, Go in Peace). These will be sung in Latin. And most of us already know or can quickly learn the Latin musical settings for these Ordinary parts of the Mass.

Hymns are normally sung during the Processional, during Communion, and the during the Recessional portions of each Mass. They are an optional and unnecessary part of the liturgy. But that’s generally when hymns are sung.

My sense is that the Credo and the Ite Missa Est will not be sung by the congregation, rather the former will be recited by the people, and the latter will be sung by either the priest or the deacon because, despite the fact that it is technically part of the Ordinary, the Ite is not intended for congregational singing (the final response to the Ite, the Deo Gratias [Thanks be to God]) may be properly sung by the congregation.

I don’t think that hymn singing will be effected by the bishop’s changes.

According to the original article it goes beyond just the ordinary of the mass:Therefore, the bishop said, all parishes in the Marquette diocese will be expected to teach chant to the faithful, and introduce the regular chanting of the Ordinary parts of the Mass. …

Bishop Doerfler also announced that the diocese would prepare its own hymnal, and only music from that hymnal will be approved for use at Mass in the diocese.
I am reading that as hymals and missals from GIA such as “Gather” or “Worship” or OCP’s “Breaking Bread” and “Choose Christ”, etc. will not be approved for use in the Mass is his diocese. Since many of the popular hymns from those selections are copyrighted, the diocese would have to either not include them or pay a royalty to the publishers to include them. I would suspect only music in the public domain or ones written specifically for the hymnal would be approved.

 

[ProVobis]

Since many of the popular hymns from those selections are copyrighted, the diocese would have to either not include them or pay a royalty to the publishers to include them. I would suspect only music in the public domain or ones written specifically for the hymnal would be approved.

Makes sense.

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

According to the original article it goes beyond just the ordinary of the mass:Therefore, the bishop said, all parishes in the Marquette diocese will be expected to teach chant to the faithful, and introduce the regular chanting of the Ordinary parts of the Mass. …

Bishop Doerfler also announced that the diocese would prepare its own hymnal, and only music from that hymnal will be approved for use at Mass in the diocese.
I am reading that as hymals and missals from GIA such as “Gather” or “Worship” or OCP’s “Breaking Bread” and “Choose Christ”, etc. will not be approved for use in the Mass is his diocese. Since many of the popular hymns from those selections are copyrighted, the diocese would have to either not include them or pay a royalty to the publishers to include them. I would suspect only music in the public domain or ones written specifically for the hymnal would be approved.

I reiterate: the Ordinary parts of the Mass are the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, and the Ite Missa Est. There are several modal chant settings for chanting all of these. For simplicity’s sake and for practical use, most chants fall into one of eight modes (but Gregorian chant is not limited to eight). All of these modes are recognizable and easy to learn. A hymnal provided by the diocese would in all likelihood include a variety of settings for the modes to be used for Mass in this diocese. This will not be hard for people to learn.

As for hymns to be included in the hymnal, I suspect that you are correct, the tunes and lyrics will have to be Public Domain. But that’s OK with me – and I do have an informed opinion on this. I’d rather sing the old chestnuts of yesteryear than the pretentious and consistently awkward lyrics of our modern-day agenda-driven songwriters. For far too long the cartel of GIA and OCP have held a monopoly on Catholic music by controlling the content of their ICEL-approved hymnals. I commend the bishop for (perhaps inadvertently) breaking their control of the kind of hymnody that has held the Church captive since the 1970’s. No more dull and boring show tunes by such songmeisters as Haas, Joncas, and Haugen – bring on the morn!.

 

[Hazen_Pingree]

As a postscript, here are two fine hymnals that are currently available in the market today: The Adoremus Hymnal and the Ignatius Pew Missal. Both have easy-to-read-and-perform chant settings and a fine selection of classic Public Domain hymnody. I suspect that, because these book are not produced in great quantities, the cost per unit for parish use may be prohibitive. Demand needs to be created and the costs will come down. The *Pew Missal *has one major fault, and that is its binding which makes it less convenient for daily work. Nonetheless, its content is superb.

 

[pnewton]

According to the original article it goes beyond just the ordinary of the mass:Therefore, the bishop said, all parishes in the Marquette diocese will be expected to teach chant to the faithful, and introduce the regular chanting of the Ordinary parts of the Mass. …

Bishop Doerfler also announced that the diocese would prepare its own hymnal, and only music from that hymnal will be approved for use at Mass in the diocese.

It is premature to speculate what that hymnal will include and exclude. If the bishop intends it to be used in every parish, it might have a broad appeal and range of songs, including ones that some people do not like.

Also, it remains to be seen how exactly this initiative will work out in practice. Most parishes rely on volunteer musicians. If some of those are not open to this change, the diocese might see spoken Masses become more common.

I wonder if his hymnal will allow for languages other than English.

 

[Usige]

It is premature to speculate what that hymnal will include and exclude. If the bishop intends it to be used in every parish, it might have a broad appeal and range of songs, including ones that some people do not like.

Also, it remains to be seen how exactly this initiative will work out in practice. Most parishes rely on volunteer musicians. If some of those are not open to this change, the diocese might see spoken Masses become more common.

I wonder if his hymnal will allow for languages other than English.

I’m not saying that the hymnal will only contain songs from 100+ years ago or in a single style. I am simply saying that many songs that are cherished by some (Taste and See, Hail Mary - Gentle Woman, etc) are copyrighted and cannot be included without some type of agreement with the copyright holder. For all I know Amazing Grace will be included or they will hire someone like Sydney Carter to write some other hymn based on a statue of the Hindu god Shiva, a la “Lord of the Dance”.

My point is that if parishes are already using hymnals from some of the big music mills, there is a good chance that their favorites might no longer be an option.

Personally I have no issue with an increase in spoken masses. I know when a survey was sent out in our parish a couple years back that a number of people asked for one mass each Sunday to have no hymns.

Finally, I certainly hope it allows for languages other than English. Latin would seem to be a good starting place.

 

[pnewton]

I’m not saying that the hymnal will only contain songs from 100+ years ago or in a single style. I am simply saying that many songs that are cherished by some (Taste and See, Hail Mary - Gentle Woman, etc) are copyrighted and cannot be included without some type of agreement with the copyright holder

Those copyrights are routinely sold between publishers. I think you are right that the price will make the decision making more selective, but I do not see publishing a hymnal without buying at least some rights. (le.g. “Gather Us In”)

 

[Usige]

Those copyrights are routinely sold between publishers. I think you are right that the price will make the decision making more selective, but I do not see publishing a hymnal without buying at least some rights. (le.g. “Gather Us In”)

Much of that will depend on how it’s funded and the licensing. Publishing houses make money on their products. In many cases of things like Breaking Bread it’s a continuous money stream. I don’t imagine the bishop charging his pastors for the right you use the diocesan hymnal every year. Also the bishop might not want to pay $10,000 to license “Gather Us In” for 15 -20 years (or perpetuity) if the generation that loves it might be getting long in the tooth and he’d need to replace it with some new piece he’d need to buy.

Personally I don’t see why you’d **have **to go to a publishing house to buy their music. You might want to for sentimental reasons, but that doesn’t mean it makes financial sense. Even some of their “gems” are actually different arraignments of traditional pieces with changes in the lyrics so that they can be copyrighted. If you are going to the trouble of putting together your own hymnal it would make sense to hire your own resident composer(s) and start with a large mix of public domain works and increase those written specifically for the diocesan hymnal.

The only reason I could see to license something from GIA or OCP is if they had a work so superb that it would be impossible to ignore. I have as yet to see any of the modern publishing houses with a Mozart, Palestrina, or William Byrd on staff. Nothing that Haugen has written is remotely comparable to the works of those that have stood as master works for centuries. There are some decent songs, but nothing that I would pay a publishing house more than a couple hundred bucks for for a perpetual license.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

A lot of the stuff I hear at some parishes just seems to be geared towards Boomers recapturing the sounds of the '70s.

Music that to me, at 30, is just old and lame. It’s basically bad old folk music and when you regularly listen to modern good folk music it sounds even worse. Sometimes I think the adage of “we need this music to bring in young people” means “I’ve forgotten that I stopped being young 40 years ago and this is what I liked then.”

“Modern” music also doesn’t fit at all with the vision of Vatican II, if you actually read the documents. So changes like this, to chant, polyphony, and Latin, are needed if we are to work with the hope and desire of the “Spirit of Vatican II”.

I would miss annoying my wife by singing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald when we do Gather Us In, though (which also shows it’s not just bad folk music, but derivative and unoriginal folk music).

Please don’t sing Cat’s in the Cradle during City of God. That song always makes me tear up.

 

[pnewton]

The only reason I could see to license something from GIA or OCP is if they had a work so superb that it would be impossible to ignore… There are some decent songs, but nothing that I would pay a publishing house more than a couple hundred bucks for for a perpetual license.

I would think the bishop, if he intends to make the hymnal universal, would want it to have broad application, not just that which appeals to the more traditional minded people. It would need to be applicable to traditional parishes, as well as those who are not; adult, youth and children’s Masses.

Maybe he is trying to make everything of one flavor. If he is, I am skeptical of the experiment.

 

[Mongo]

I would think the bishop, if he intends to make the hymnal universal, would want it to have broad application, not just that which appeals to the more traditional minded people. It would need to be applicable to traditional parishes, as well as those who are not; adult, youth and children’s Masses.

Maybe he is trying to make everything of one flavor. If he is, I am skeptical of the experiment.

Or he could see aesthetics as an essential character of good liturgy. What is his purpose; to appeal to as many people as possible, or to give those he can a liturgy that inspires them with a sense of beauty and awe?