Michigan city could become first in U.S. under Muslim control

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Well In Michigan (Dearborn) there were a lot of protests against the Terrorists and Osama Bin Laden. Please stop trying to change history.
I think what you remember were protests saying “Do not hurt us.” These protests took place about a **week after **the attack.

To claim there was a widespread condemnation of the attacks by Muslims and Muslim leaders is changing history. Pointing out that there were no such condemnations is simply stating history.
 
cbc.ca/world/story/2005/03/11/fatwa-050311.html

Here is one.

I am currently searching for other’s.
Wow, it only took them three and a half years after Sept. 11 and a full year after the March 11, 2004 Madrid bombings to issue this. I must admit, they are really on the ball! Good job! Very prompt! 👍

There are a few back-dated condemnations posted on the web. There are also a good deal of forged condemnations. Any condemnation dated Sept. 11, 2001 is a lie. If you look back through this thread, you will see this topic has come up before. Others have been unable to come up with genuine evidence of widespread condemnations. Show me some statements from Saudi clerics or from Iran. You won’t be able to because they do not exist.

Besides, this is off topic in a big way. If you want to challenge the weight of history and claim there was a widespread condemnation from the Islamic world on the Islamic terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, start another thread. But threads about Sept. 11 myths do not last long here.
 
There are a few back-dated condemnations posted on the web. There are also a good deal of forged condemnations.
You distinguish between back-dated condemnations and forged condemnations. How do you recognize a forged condemnation?
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rpp:
Others have been unable to come up with genuine evidence of widespread condemnations.
Others gave up when you failed to clarify your vague terms.
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rpp:
Show me some statements from Saudi clerics or from Iran. You won’t be able to because they do not exist.
From The Gleaner of Kingston, Jamaica, we have this from September 13:
“We condemn any act of terror and murder of innocent people. No Muslim can be pleased about such a human catastrophe,” said Hassan Rowhani, a top security official.
"This incident showed that all governments should cooperate for a logical way to curb the spread of this ominous phenomenon in the world,” Rowhani, a moderate conservative, told Iran’s IRNA news agency.
In an unprecedented move on Tuesday, reformist President Muhammad Khatami stepped forward to personally denounce the attacks. “My deep sympathy goes out to the American nation, particularly those who have suffered from the attacks and also the families of the victims,” he said.
Source
 
Returning to the topic of Hamtramck, there do not seem to have been any new developments in the election. GM will be closing its Hamtramck plant a week each in October, November, and December due to high inventory.

And more interesting, this weekend is the annual Hamtramck Labor Day Festival, which will feature among others a musical group named the Polish Muslims, which appears to be a polka and novelty act.
 
Oh Please… The German Reich stag elections were rigged with intimidation, death threats, and discrimination against Communists, Capatilists, and Jews. The Nazi Party made sure they could not vote. So no its not the same thing and the elections in Germany were not democratic.
Cites?
 
It is not an assumption. It is a fact. Ignorance of this fact can be suicidal, as we have seen in recent years.
Well, let’s go back to the one major source of information we have about muslim attitudes in the US, the Pew poll. The Pew poll states that 80 percent of US muslims states that suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam cannot be justified. That is more than a clear majority of muslims. As I stated before, in my personal experience, the muslim people I know are peace loving, completely agree with US democratic values, and were horrified by the actions of 9/11.

I think it would be detrimental to the democratic principles and completely contrary to our Christian values to arbitrarily restrict muslims from our country. Christ called on us to embrace all people and be a model for all to follow. In His time, there were several pagan, polytheistic religions and several that were actively hostile to Judaism. The Lord did not instruct the apostles or the people of that time to exclude those people, but rather include them in the message of his love. It was through this openess and love that Christianity spread to where it is today.

And from a practical standpoint, if we were to exclude muslims from the US, wouldn’t we just be lowering ourselves to Al Queda’s level and legitimating Al Queda’s story that the US are awful Christians who are hostile, intolerant and exclusionary to Islam? We would definitely create many new enemies this way out of people who are currently our friends.

Investigate terrorists and go after them, but don’t shut the door on those who are peacefully co-existing with us.
 
Well, let’s go back to the one major source of information we have about muslim attitudes in the US, the Pew poll. The Pew poll states that 80 percent of US muslims states that suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam cannot be justified. That is more than a clear majority of muslims. As I stated before, in my personal experience, the muslim people I know are peace loving, completely agree with US democratic values, and were horrified by the actions of 9/11.

I think it would be detrimental to the democratic principles and completely contrary to our Christian values to arbitrarily restrict muslims from our country. Christ called on us to embrace all people and be a model for all to follow. In His time, there were several pagan, polytheistic religions and several that were actively hostile to Judaism. The Lord did not instruct the apostles or the people of that time to exclude those people, but rather include them in the message of his love. It was through this openess and love that Christianity spread to where it is today.

And from a practical standpoint, if we were to exclude muslims from the US, wouldn’t we just be lowering ourselves to Al Queda’s level and legitimating Al Queda’s story that the US are awful Christians who are hostile, intolerant and exclusionary to Islam? We would definitely create many new enemies this way out of people who are currently our friends.

Investigate terrorists and go after them, but don’t shut the door on those who are peacefully co-existing with us.
So 20% of American Muslims feel that suicide bombing can be justified to promote Islam. That is a huge number. I suspect that if you asked Christians is suicide bombing is justified to promote Christianity, the number of those supporting it would be considerably smaller.

You see the problem is violence is not an election. It is not majority rules. When you have a significant fraction, and 20% is not a “fringe” movement, one must look very hard.

As for “lowering ourself to Al Qaeda’s level”, that is a grotesque comparison. No one has suggested the arbitrary murder of innocent people, which is Al Qaeda’s specialty. Please do not make such a comparison, it is seriously offensive, and seriously inaccurate.

Self defense is a Christian value.
 
So 20% of American Muslims feel that suicide bombing can be justified to promote Islam. That is a huge number. I suspect that if you asked Christians is suicide bombing is justified to promote Christianity, the number of those supporting it would be considerably smaller.

You see the problem is violence is not an election. It is not majority rules. When you have a significant fraction, and 20% is not a “fringe” movement, one must look very hard.

As for “lowering ourself to Al Qaeda’s level”, that is a grotesque comparison. No one has suggested the arbitrary murder of innocent people, which is Al Qaeda’s specialty. Please do not make such a comparison, it is seriously offensive, and seriously inaccurate.

Self defense is a Christian value.
It did say “defend islam”, rather than “promote islam”.
 
So 20% of American Muslims feel that suicide bombing can be justified to promote Islam. That is a huge number. I suspect that if you asked Christians is suicide bombing is justified to promote Christianity, the number of those supporting it would be considerably smaller.

You see the problem is violence is not an election. It is not majority rules. When you have a significant fraction, and 20% is not a “fringe” movement, one must look very hard.
I think Elric’s clarification is an important one. There is a difference between violence to defend one’s religion and violence to promote one’s religion. The poll really isn’t specific enough about the conditions under which these respondents would consider suicide bombings to be justified. And you certainly can’t conclude that these respondents think its okay or justified for muslims to blow themselves up here and now in the US to defend Islam. Though I admit it is disquieting to think that anyone would find suicide bombings an acceptable warfare tactic.

But violence to defend one’s way of life or religion isn’t unique to Islam. The Catholic Church entered into the crusades in the middle ages to defend Catholicism. The US entered into war with Afgahnistan to defend our country.
As for “lowering ourself to Al Qaeda’s level”, that is a grotesque comparison. No one has suggested the arbitrary murder of innocent people, which is Al Qaeda’s specialty. Please do not make such a comparison, it is seriously offensive, and seriously inaccurate.
Given the context of my statement, that is not what I meant and I’m sorry if you misunderstood. I clearly did not mean lowering ourselves to the violent tactics that Al Queda uses. But by adopting an intolerant attitude towards muslims, we would be lowering ourselves to the intolerant attitude that Al Queda has towards Christian’s and Americans. Al Queda would love nothing more than that because they know that such a show of intolerance by the US would further divide Christians and muslims and create more violence and chaos in the world.
Self defense is a Christian value.
True, that is why the Catholic Church has the Just War Doctrine, and why America has the CIA, FBI, NSA, DNI, Homeland Security Department, and local police departments.
 
Another aspect about that Pew Research poll is the following:

By the way, here is the link to it again.
pewforum.org/surveys/muslim-american/

Let me restate the findings we see charted on that page in terms of negative instead of positive…

Moslems not “very concerned with Islamic Extremism”
American: 49%
Britain: 48%
France 65%
Germany 71%
Spain 71%

I think we can agree that Islamic terror groups (and individuals) draw from Islamic extremists. The fact that so few are concerned about Islamic extremism seems to indicate that there is little interest within Islam to curb the root cause of Islamic terrorism.

That is also what frightens me. I do believe that Muslim immigrants need to be scrutinized more carefully and more closely than any other group. No matter what country they come from.

Notice that I am saying that all Muslims should be excluded, but I think strict limits on Muslim immigration is important. This in addition to heightened scrutiny. We already have strict limits on how many can immigrate from various countries of origin. This should be extended to Muslims.

I know this is not very popular, but then I believe what the Church teaches about suicide and euthanasia.
 
Another aspect about that Pew Research poll is the following:

By the way, here is the link to it again.
pewforum.org/surveys/muslim-american/

Let me restate the findings we see charted on that page in terms of negative instead of positive…

Moslems not “very concerned with Islamic Extremism”
American: 49%
Britain: 48%
France 65%
Germany 71%
Spain 71%

I think we can agree that Islamic terror groups (and individuals) draw from Islamic extremists. The fact that so few are concerned about Islamic extremism seems to indicate that there is little interest within Islam to curb the root cause of Islamic terrorism.
I’ve always found the term ‘Islamic extremism’ interesting, and I wonder how people in the Moslem community interpret it. I think in the media and in our culture generally, we associate it with terrorism. However, if you were to call someone a Catholic extremist, I think an orthodox Catholic would consider that a compliment. I just wonder how the muslims polled interpreted extremism.
That is also what frightens me. I do believe that Muslim immigrants need to be scrutinized more carefully and more closely than any other group. No matter what country they come from.
I think that is already happening. I’m sure the FBI, CIA, DHS adn NSA keep extremely close tabs on suspect individuals from Middle Eastern countries, who are predominantly muslim.
Notice that I am saying that all Muslims should be excluded, but I think strict limits on Muslim immigration is important. This in addition to heightened scrutiny. We already have strict limits on how many can immigrate from various countries of origin. This should be extended to Muslims.
I’m glad to hear that you are not advocating an absolute exclusion of muslims to this country. There are quotas in place in terms of how many people can immigrate from each country every year. I’m sure that people applying for immigration from Middle Eastern countries go through extremely close scrutiny post 9/11. I wouldn’t support quotas based on religious affiliation because is is abritrary and leaves the impression that Americans think most muslims are violent individuals. However, I am sure that people applying for immigration from Middle Eastern countries go through extremely close scrutiny by DHS before they are permitted a visa to enter the country for national security reasons.
 
I made a serious typo in my previous post. One poster who quoted me understood my intent, but I want to correct it just the same.

The typo was that I left out the the “not” in my first sentence of the second to the last last paragraph. Here is correction.
Notice that I am **NOT **saying that all Muslims should be excluded, but I think strict limits on Muslim immigration is important. This in addition to heightened scrutiny. We already have strict limits on how many can immigrate from various countries of origin. This should be extended to Muslims.

I know this is not very popular, but then I believe what the Church teaches about suicide and euthanasia.
 
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