Michigan court says companies don’t have to serve customers who are gay

[ConcernedAmerican]

I’ll add the caveat that law should differentiate between small privately own business and big publicly traded business.

So yes, small business should be able to refuse service for any reason, good/bad/racist/sexist whatever provided it is not a life sustaining necessity and there’s not another choice readily available.

Publicly traded companies should be treated as public utilities/resources and should not be allowed to discriminate based on anything, and freedom of speech and the like should be protected for those using their platforms

 

[Pattylt]

Would you really want to have stayed in a hotel where the staff was antisemitic?

The only way we knew is because they refused us. It was late at night. We needed a room. We were leaving the next morning. If he hadn’t denied us service, we would never had known nor probably cared in a realistic sense. We had to travel for a bit more to find another motel when we were already tired and needing sleep. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

On Chick Fil A, the point was that the boycott by gays was more than counter balanced by the Christian support, challenging your comment that they’d just go out of business.

People that insist on putting their ideals above just doing business with the public shouldn’t be in a public facing business where they might have to serve undesirables like me…or gays…or Muslims…or Catholics. Show your idealism or righteousness outside of your business or just don’t go into business in the first place. It’s actually rather easy. Just serve the public…with some honor and decency if you can manage it and show your distain of “others” where we don’t have to be disadvantaged for it…in your social clubs, your church or home. It’s really not hard to treat humans humanely.

 

[MikeInVA]

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

But what if they self identified, say with swastikas on the sign. Would you still want to stay there? I’m not Jewish but I would pass on a place like that.

On Chick Fil A, the point was that the boycott by gays was more than counter balanced by the Christian support, challenging your comment that they’d just go out of business.

No, it shows that the SSA supporters are not as large a demographic as TV would have us believe.

People that insist on putting their ideals above just doing business with the public shouldn’t be in a public facing business

So I must abandon my values to work? You do understand that companies are owned by people - and some of them have strong value systems? I don’t completely agree with their version of Christianity, but I choose to support Hobby Lobby and the Museum of the Bible because of their beliefs.

 

[Balto1]

There are no “good people” among the skinheads.

Don’t lump SHARP in with the racists!

Anyways, the Michigan anti-discrimination law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex so it absolutely protects gay people against discrimination.

 

[Pattylt]

So I must abandon my values to work? You do understand that companies are owned by people - and some of them have strong value systems? I don’t completely agree with their version of Christianity, but I choose to support Hobby Lobby and the Museum of the Bible because of their beliefs.

Sometimes, yes you must abandon your values while serving the public at large. Everyone deserves to be treated as human being regardless of how you feel about them. That’s just a price you pay to own a business in the public sector. Your argument is exactly the same as those used to keep blacks out of their stores and not sit at their lunch counters. You don’t have to like the people. You don’t have to agree with their views but you do have to give them the same service as everyone you do agree with.

If the motel had had a swastika on their entry or billboard, of course we wouldn’t have stopped. Are you in favor of every business having to post their hate group on their doors? A No Gays Served Here sign? If you think that’s fine, I have no further comment.

 

[ConcernedAmerican]

Sometimes, yes you must abandon your values while serving the public at large.

That is exactly what is wrong in society.

 

[YADA]

So, you’re ok with businesses deciding they don’t want to deal with Catholics ? Banks can refuse loans. Jewish delis can refuse all Christians. Large department stores don’t have to sell to you? Apple won’t sell you iPhones.

Please think this through a bit more. It sounds like a fine plan when you get to decide but looks a bit different when you’re the one being excluded. I much prefer that any public facing business must serve all the public. No one should be forced to provide a service they don’t already provide but must provide that which is part of their business to everyone.

So are you good with a business being forced to provide services for a KKK meeting … you know … a bakery being forced to provide cakes decorated with a cross burning in front of a house …

Or a business being forced to provide services to a pornographic organization - you know … providing a venue for their party complete is cakes shaped and or decorated with sexual body parts …

A party for NAMBLA - that is North American Man Boy Love Association … I mean at one time a Catholic Priest actually was an active member of NAMBLA Ugh

A bakery refusing to sell everyday products and or services to the general public - that walks in - is different than refusing to provide a service at a private affair whose purpose and focus violates their conscience or moral convictions … They should sell cookies and cakes to anyone … but not make a cake for a special event

Should you have to make a cake that celebrates Communism? Bestiality, Devil Worship, Abortion, Planned Parenthood?

 

[Pattylt]

A bakery refusing to sell everyday products and or services to the general public - that walks in - is different than refusing to provide a service at a private affair whose purpose and focus violates their conscience or moral convictions … They should sell cookies and cakes to anyone … but not make a cake for a special event

This is explicitly what I AM saying. Any public facing business should be available to the general public. If it’s not part of their business then of course they shouldn’t be forced to. I believe I even said this above. Please don’t counter an argument that I didn’t make.

 

[Balto1]

Should you have to make a cake that celebrates Communism? Bestiality, Devil Worship, Abortion, Planned Parenthood?

You should have to provide equal services to all customers. If you sell pro-bestiality cakes to straight people you have to sell pro-bestiality cakes to gay people.

 

[YADA]

You should have to provide equal services to all customers. If you sell pro-bestiality cakes to straight people you have to sell pro-bestiality cakes to gay people.

So if you only sell wedding cakes to weddings that are between a man and a woman - why should you then be forced to sell wedding cakes to two guys? …

That is different to being pro bestiality so some but not pro bestiality to others …

And I would not force a Jewish bakery to provide a birthday cake to the neo-Nazi that wants to provide Swastika decorated cake to his child … and neither would you

I would not even force a Muslim Bakery to make a cake decorated with a picture of bacon or a pig on it … but by your standard if a bakery offers to custom decorate any cake they have to accommodate every depiction a person could ask for and they could not refuse …

 

[StudentMI]

As a homosexual Catholic Michigander…

Eh, forget it.

 

[StudentMI]

Good. Businesses should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless they provide a necessary life sustaining service and there’s not another option readily available.

So businesses should have a right to refuse a sandwich to a black man?

 

[Balto1]

So if you only sell wedding cakes to weddings that are between a man and a woman - why should you then be forced to sell wedding cakes to two guys? …

I imagine if you wrote “THIS IS A CAKE FOR STRAIGHT WEDDINGS ONLY GAY PEOPLE ARE SINNERS WHO WILL BURN IN HELL” in icing on all your cakes you wouldn’t have a lot of gay customers. Otherwise a wedding cake is a wedding cake, I’m not sure what makes a cake straight or gay.

And I would not force a Jewish bakery to provide a birthday cake to the neo-Nazi that wants to provide Swastika decorated cake to his child … and neither would you

Of course not. But if a Jewish baker chose to sell cakes with swastikas on them to straight people he should be forced to sell them to gay people as well.

I would not even force a Muslim Bakery to make a cake decorated with a picture of bacon or a pig on it … but by your standard if a bakery offers to custom decorate any cake they have to accommodate every depiction a person could ask for and they could not refuse …

No, by my standard if a Muslim baker sold a cake with bacon on it to straight people that baker should be required to sell a cake with bacon on it to gay people.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

More importantly, do you want to have to worry about doing business with a company at all? I’d much rather just be able to walk into any business and assume I’ll get good service.

This makes me think of “The Negro Motorist Handbook” guiding minorities to where they could stop, get a meal, gas up, or spend the night without getting run out of town or worst.

 

[Pattylt]

This makes me think of “The Negro Motorist Handbook” guiding minorities to where they could stop, get a meal, gas up, or spend the night without getting run out of town or worst.

From the poster above, I think we will need one for every ethnicity and religion and lifestyle soon. Much, much better to just say You Must Serve the Whole Public if You Serve the Public!

 

[Feanor2]

Pattylt:

So, you’re ok with businesses deciding they don’t want to deal with Catholics ? Banks can refuse loans. Jewish delis can refuse all Christians. Large department stores don’t have to sell to you? Apple won’t sell you iPhones.

1. How does a business know my religion?
2. If a business chooses not to work with a sector of the population, their custom will go elsewhere and the business will close. It is a somewhat self-correcting situation.

In certain parts of the US a sizable group of the population might appreciate a restaurant that won’t serve black people for instance.

Should this be allowed?

 

[ChuckB]

No…that is the leap that Zacc took…I was seeking clarification.

Oops…my bad.

 

[RootKitWarrior]

ConcernedAmerican:

Good. Businesses should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless they provide a necessary life sustaining service and there’s not another option readily available.

So businesses should have a right to refuse a sandwich to a black man?

That seems to be the implication.

 

[Suudy]

From the poster above, I think we will need one for every ethnicity and religion and lifestyle soon.

This is alternative history. The “Negro Motorist Handbook” was created in response to government action, not businesses. It is precisely because of government that there were a shortage of businesses willing or capable to serve black people. The same is true now. There is no shortage of bakeries, diners, hotels, florist, etc, to serve any group. Indeed, with the proliferation of information systems, it is far easier to identify businesses that are exclusionary and far easier to get the word out to boycott or otherwise avoid them.

Even in the case cited in the OP, there are no shortages of campgrounds or electrolysis companies available. There is also no actual damages cited by any of the complainants. Just like in Masterpiece Cake Shop. Just like in Arlene’s flowers. Just like Brush and Nib Studios. No law is necessary to protect access to any of these plentiful services.

 

[sallybutler]

Because they see you going into a place of worship, they then decide that is your religion. Or, they never see you go into a place of worship, so they decide you are an atheist or a pagan.

None of this has to make sense, it can be based on feelings and assumptions.