Mid Life Crisis + I love you, but am not in love with you

[KnitNut]

I can listen as long as I can tell her, "no, honey I am not part of the team to separate the family.

Honestly, I can see how she’d feel she’s talked to a wall all these years. You need to shelve that pride and get back to being a SERVANT of your family, including your wife. (You know, that whole Servant of the Servants thing that spiritual leaders do.) There is no “team to separate the family”. She is trying DESPERATELY to find a solution to what, to her, is a REALLY REAL situation. You are not really listening if you’re silently playing your inner soundtrack, “I’m not on her team. She’s not on my team.” Seriously. I’ve worked in mediation, and I can’t imagine a counselor encouraging your mindset. It’s just throwing up a roadblock to finding real solutions to real problems.

 

[KnitNut]

I don’t think she has thought this out very well and I think that is part of the problem. I am going to have to be really careful in asking her questions as she gets defensive easily and she blames me for making her feel guilty. You know “the Catholic Guilt”.

If you are hitting her over the head with faith as a justification for your historically not-good behavior, then that’s a real issue. After reading this, my personal opinion is you absolutely need a neutral mediator/facilitator for your discussions concerning parenting issues (including potential separation/shared parenting). I don’t see it going well otherwise. Just my two pennies’ worth. Get. Help.

 

[dannyd4007]

Knitnut,

Thank you for bringing some fresh perspective and insight. I am really not the evil man you make me out to be, but then again maybe you could be spot on. Anyhow, I hope you will decide to pray for me, as whether someone is Catholic, Orthodox or Jewish I would love to have all the prayers for my restoration of my family. I hope you believe in as much, that restoration of the family would be best.

PS, Here are a couple other things from Canon Law

2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.173 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.174
Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death."175

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178

Thanks again for you insight.

 

[KnitNut]

PS, Here are a couple other things from Canon Law

2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.173 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.174
Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death."175

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178

Thanks again for you insight.

See? This is what I mean. Rather than discussion my (myriad) suggestions, now you’re clubbing me with your myopic view. The Catholic Church says MUCH about marriage, about the role of spouses and parents…and I’m thinking there’s something in sacred scripture about logs, motes, eyes…I dunno, I’ll go back and look at Matthew 7 again. Anyway, it’s worth reading.

You’re far from an innocent party here, sir. And the disorder has already been introduced to the family…she has been suffering, as you say, for a “long time”. So…I’ve said my piece and will unsub from the thread. Lord have mercy.

 

[pensmama87]

OP, I have to agree with KnitNut.

A couple years ago, I was ready to walk. It wasn’t rational, it would have been harder on me and the kids, but I was past the point of being able to see reason. I was mired in postpartum depression, I had very little support outside my marriage, and I’d been trying to get through to my husband for a long time and he just wasn’t getting it (or was refusing to get it, as I resentfully thought.) I was so desperate I was willing to move back in with my parents (which would have been no picnic). The only thing holding me back was the sheer cost of plane tickets.

Four months isn’t long enough. I was very blessed to benefit from a very good counselor who helped me in a lot of ways, and one of the things she helped me to do was ask DH for a year - he too could help out for a few months, but then everything would slide back and I’d feel desperate again and like I’d been hoodwinked into staying. I can understand your wife feeling that way. But I told him I’d give him a year, and he needed to take me and my needs seriously all that time, and I knew there was a learning curve but this was going to be it.

It wasn’t perfect, but we are doing much, much better than we were then, and I feel respected and loved, which I didn’t before. It’s a lot easier to keep doing things that are hard (and you’ve got a really hard situation) when you feel like you matter.

 

[Xantippe]

OP, I have to agree with KnitNut.

A couple years ago, I was ready to walk. It wasn’t rational, it would have been harder on me and the kids, but I was past the point of being able to see reason. I was mired in postpartum depression, I had very little support outside my marriage, and I’d been trying to get through to my husband for a long time and he just wasn’t getting it (or was refusing to get it, as I resentfully thought.) I was so desperate I was willing to move back in with my parents (which would have been no picnic). The only thing holding me back was the sheer cost of plane tickets.

Four months isn’t long enough. I was very blessed to benefit from a very good counselor who helped me in a lot of ways, and one of the things she helped me to do was ask DH for a year - he too could help out for a few months, but then everything would slide back and I’d feel desperate again and like I’d been hoodwinked into staying. I can understand your wife feeling that way. But I told him I’d give him a year, and he needed to take me and my needs seriously all that time, and I knew there was a learning curve but this was going to be it.

It wasn’t perfect, but we are doing much, much better than we were then, and I feel respected and loved, which I didn’t before. It’s a lot easier to keep doing things that are hard (and you’ve got a really hard situation) when you feel like you matter.

Yeah, four months of good behavior isn’t a lot. It could be the beginning of a lifelong change, or it might be purely temporary. At the one year mark, though, it’s much clearer that a permanent change has taken place.

Also, bear in mind that if you have made a lifelong change, why expect cookies for having done the good stuff for a four whole months? If you’ve made a lifelong change in behavior, it shouldn’t be requiring continual heroic effort. If it does require continual heroic effort, it’s probably not something you can keep up long term. So, your wife ought to be skeptical of your ability to keep it up if you are making a big deal of your efforts so far.

 

[dannyd4007]

I get what you are saying, 5 kids those does take effort. I know it may seem like heroic, but sometimes it has to be. Like I am going to tell her if she brings it up again, when she leaves this is going to be fine life X 10. Really either way I look at it, this change has to happen for ever and it probably does need to be heroic.

Sincerely, thank you for your thoughts. Really gets me thinking and it is actually nice to know that I shouldn’t be panicking after 4 months.

I would love for her to give me a year!

 

[Xantippe]

I get what you are saying, 5 kids those does take effort. I know it may seem like heroic, but sometimes it has to be. Like I am going to tell her if she brings it up again, when she leaves this is going to be fine life X 10. Really either way I look at it, this change has to happen for ever and it probably does need to be heroic.

That’s a very positive and productive way to look at it.

By the way, I would recommend (both for dealing with your wife and kids) works on positive reinforcement. I usually recommend “Transforming the Difficult Child” and “Don’t Shoot the Dog!” The first one is about using positive reinforcement on hard-to-manage children, but you’ll find some obvious applications to your marriage.

Our oldest child is mildly autistic and I’ve found that the reading on positive reinforcement that I’ve done when working with her has had a lot of payoffs in other relationships, including with my husband. One thing I’ve learned from “Transforming the Difficult Child” is the value of noticing and describing when the child is doing something good. You could do the same with your wife (with adjustments in tone for dealing with an adult who knows you inside out and will immediately be able to figure out if you’re insincere).

 

[dannyd4007]

Thank you Monica,

You will get on a Forum you never know the background someone is coming from. Everyone who has commented has given me a lot to think about. It is nice to hear someone come in and grasp exactly what I am thinking and feeling.

It sounds like we really come from the same background in our faith. When she says “no” and she is leaving what next in your mind? Allow her to make those decisions and just show Love and Support? At least in all of this I have stood by my marriage to her.

One thing of note, I have made a lot of changes as I have said and she is upset of course that I am doing it now and she thinks I need to stop because I am killing myself. I thought about it this morning and I believe I am going to tell her, “I am divorcing my marriage, not you. I know you are serious about leaving and frankly it is more important that I make these changes now, because I will need to be like this when you leave”

Thoughts anyone? Is it right to say I am divorcing my marriage, but not you I will always be married to you. One other thing,

This has been really painful, but it really needed to happen I needed this life changing event and the Good Lord realized this…As painful as it it, I am so much a better person.

I really appreciate everyone’s prayers.

Lord, inspire those men and women who bear the titles “Husband” and “Wife”. Help them to look to You to themselves to one another to rediscover the fullness and mystery they once felt in their union. Let them be honest enough to ask: "Where have we been together and where are we going? Let them be brave enough to question: “How have we failed?” Let each be foolhardy enough to say: “For me, we come first”. Help them, together to reexamine their commitment in the light of Your love, willingly, openly, compassionately. One Hail Mary…
Hail, O Virgin of Guadalupe. We place under your powerful patronage the purity and integrity of the HolyFaith in Mexico and in all the American Continent, for we are certain that while you are recognized as Queen and Mother, America and Mexico and our Matrimony will be saved…
Amen.

 

[dannyd4007]

I sent that directly to Monica, but I also wanted to THANK everyone else.

God Bless

 

[Xantippe]

One thing of note, I have made a lot of changes as I have said and she is upset of course that I am doing it now and she thinks I need to stop because I am killing myself. I thought about it this morning and I believe I am going to tell her, “I am divorcing my marriage, not you. I know you are serious about leaving and frankly it is more important that I make these changes now, because I will need to be like this when you leave”

Thoughts anyone? Is it right to say I am divorcing my marriage, but not you I will always be married to you. One other thing,

I would not say “I am divorcing my marriage, not you.” I don’t think I would utter the words “I am divorcing” to her until you are actually divorcing.

With regard to your activities, I think it’s worthwhile to tell her something like this. “If you are leaving, both of us are going to have to work 2 or 3 times as hard when we are each parenting the children by ourselves. I’m getting used to it now. You need to think about how well you do with the kids without me. If you can’t manage the kids with me at home for any length of time, you can’t manage them by yourself.”

There’s also the financial side, as I mentioned previously. There’s no way she’s thought through the financials at all. At some point (maybe not now), it’s worth giving her a ballpark number on a new rental and new utilities and asking her to find the new expenses in the existing budget. Even if you sold your house, two cruddy rentals that can each fit one adult and five children would be very, very expensive–almost certainly more expensive than your current mortgage, even if it’s a big mortgage.

 

[dannyd4007]

Xantippe, you are spot on. Here is her issue, I handle all the finances and she doesn’t know, please her heart. She was a stay at home mom for many years and we got by, she goes back to work for a small salary to supplement and now she thinks that we do not need it to survive.

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe, you are spot on. Here is her issue, I handle all the finances and she doesn’t know, please her heart. She was a stay at home mom for many years and we got by, she goes back to work for a small salary to supplement and now she thinks that we do not need it to survive.

Oooooh. That’s interesting.

Seeing as how she’s planning to leave and will be managing everything all by herself soon, how about you start bringing her into the budgeting process? (In as friendly and non-confrontational way as you can.) I’m a big fan of the monthly budget meeting.

I think it’s time to educate her about the role her salary plays in your family’s finances and exactly what kind of sacrifices in lifestyle she can expect to make if your two incomes have to support two households, rather than just one.

Keep it as simple as possible and let her do the thinking, rather than you talking at her. “Where do you see an extra $1,000-$1,500 in our budget to pay for a separate household?” would be a reasonable question to ask and let her think about with the numbers in front of her showing your current budget. (Adjust according to whatever your local housing market and utilities are like.)

Good luck!

 

[kalbertone]

Bookcat is right.
Parents of even larger familes, or more difficult parenting challenges do not seek divorce. If it was only the parenting aspect-logically your wife would need your presence more - not less. It is not the children’s special needs or the children. It is how as a couple you meet their needs while staying connected to each other.

She may be confused with how a deeper lasting love looks in a relationship verses a new romantic love-one of a newlywed perhaps. So please get the book and read it and give it to her.

In reponse to papal canonizations being fallible.
Vatican Council II in the Dogmatic Constitution on The Church vs 25 claearly states " That the infallibilty that Christ willed his church to have in defining a doctrine on faith & morals,extends just as far as the deposit of revellation…
Faustina or any other saint canonized have nothing to do with revellation !

 

[mafh]

Oooooh. That’s interesting.

Seeing as how she’s planning to leave and will be managing everything all by herself soon, how about you start bringing her into the budgeting process? (In as friendly and non-confrontational way as you can.) I’m a big fan of the monthly budget meeting.

I think it’s time to educate her about the role her salary plays in your family’s finances and exactly what kind of sacrifices in lifestyle she can expect to make if your two incomes have to support two households, rather than just one.

Keep it as simple as possible and let her do the thinking, rather than you talking at her. “Where do you see an extra $1,000-$1,500 in our budget to pay for a separate household?” would be a reasonable question to ask and let her think about with the numbers in front of her showing your current budget. (Adjust according to whatever your local housing market and utilities are like.)

Good luck!

I’m a little uncomfortable with the idea of using the finances as an argument of why the wife should stay. Wouldn’t an abused, stay-at-home mother find that deepening her despair rather than making her feel empowered? I’m just trying to imagine how I’d feel in her shoes. I think you don’t want her to feel like she’s trapped into staying – you want her to decide to stay. What do you guys think?

 

[heidi_storage]

I’m a little uncomfortable with the idea of using the finances as an argument of why the wife should stay. Wouldn’t an abused, stay-at-home mother find that deepening her despair rather than making her feel empowered? I’m just trying to imagine how I’d feel in her shoes. I think you don’t want her to feel like she’s trapped into staying – you want her to decide to stay. What do you guys think?

I think that getting the wife to see that divorce is not going to solve her problems is a good idea, and going over the finances is an entirely reasonable proceeding. Money isn’t magically going to appear out of nowhere, and it’s doing her no service to deny her information about financial realities.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that getting the wife to see that divorce is not going to solve her problems is a good idea, and going over the finances is an entirely reasonable proceeding. Money isn’t magically going to appear out of nowhere, and it’s doing her no service to deny her information about financial realities.

Right.

I think what’s partly going on is a flight from adult responsibilities, and part of that is not seriously thinking about what her choices imply and perhaps a childish belief that she can have all the things–the kids when she wants them, no kids when she doesn’t want them, husband’s help when she wants him, no husband when she doesn’t want him, her current standard of living plus an apartment on exactly the same income, etc.

I think it’s fair to ask, “How is this going to work, honey?”

 

[pensmama87]

Right.

I think what’s partly going on is a flight from adult responsibilities, and part of that is not seriously thinking about what her choices imply and perhaps a childish belief that she can have all the things–the kids when she wants them, no kids when she doesn’t want them, husband’s help when she wants him, no husband when she doesn’t want him, her current standard of living plus an apartment on exactly the same income, etc.

I think it’s fair to ask, “How is this going to work, honey?”

Yes, but continuing with the heaping of offering genuine support. If the wife gets a whiff of triumphalism from the OP, I think that will go over very badly even though the facts are still the facts.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, but continuing with the heaping of offering genuine support. If the wife gets a whiff of triumphalism from the OP, I think that will go over very badly even though the facts are still the facts.

Exactly–help + realism. But make it calm, polite realism, not “mwahahaha you’re trapped!!!”. Don’t be mean about it, but be real–they need each other’s help to thrive rather than just survive. It’s virtually impossible for a moderate income divorced couple to sustain a middle-class lifestyle.

 

[TriciaF]

This sounds more like “combat fatigue” rather than your wife not loving you. If you have special needs children and your wife is the main care giver-then maybe she does need some time away from the stress and responsibilities. … I will pray for you.

Combat fatigue that has been carried on far too long.
My prayers for everyone concerned.

The "love you but not in love with you’ thing is pretty silly and juvenile, and all too common. Real relationship is about love.