Mike Gendron on Baptism

[avnrulz]

I find it rather ridiculous of Mr. Gendron to quote Acts to refute the need for Baptism with water, when we see Christ undergoing it in the Gospels, which precede them chronologically; without Christ’s works, nothing else that follows would have occurred.

 

[zz912]

(ESV) Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,** and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,** 14 who is hthe guarantee4 of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

You do realize that the verse you cited is a reference to the sacrament of Confirmation, right?

 

[Shannon9791]

I have selectively quoted your original post so I could make three observations.

1. 
   *]You are confusing a necessary cause with a necessary result. Mike is saying obedience is a result, you are saying it is a cause. A cause preceeds [salvation], a result follows it.
   *]Mike is not cutting and running. He has already answered your question. Recognizing the futility of the conversation, he has chosen not to repeat himself.
   *]I find it to be pointless in a discussion to claim that you know better than the other person what he himself believes. This is what I encounter all the time talking with non-Catholics. I say I do not worship Mary; their response is that I do. I say we do not crucify Christ again; they say that we do. The conversation goes nowhere if we cannot accept what the other person says about his own beliefs.

1. 
   1). I don’t believe that I am confusing causes with results. I think I’m pointing out that Mike has them backwards. Mike is saying Salvation is the cause, but I am saying Salvation is the result.
   
   2). Mike did cut and run because there were questions he did not answer. If I were debating a non-Catholic and he were to bring up erroneous facts regarding my beliefs, and continued to ask semi-intelligent questions, I feel I would have to continue to answer them. I understand that if someone is stuck on one position and refuses to change, then yeah, shake the dust. The thing is, the nano-second Mike found out I was Catholic, he quit all communication. Could it be that he knows he’s spreading mistruths and we know it and aren’t ashamed to call him on it? I call that cuttin and runnin!
   
   3). If you follow the logic I put down, it would seem that Mike does in fact believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. Again he says that Salvation is the cause of obedience and baptism is the result of that obedience, but if one attains salvation, and does not get baptised, then that obedience is not met, therefore, one is not truly saved. Even in Mike’s backwards way of thinking, where salvation is the cause, it still follows that baptism is necessary, if only out of a sense of obedience.

 

[melekali]

Notice the two things he did in that one sentence. First off, he basically says that obedience is necessary for one to be a “new creature in Christ” and that baptism is done out of obedience, and that one is being disobedient by not being baptized. Therefore, he is basically saying that baptism (something one must do to be obedient) is necessary for salvation. Secondly, he’s throwing out a nice little dig at my Catholicism. Saying I am a “natural person” which I don’t even understand what that is, and then saying I don’t understand the things of God.

I like your approach. Scripturally, this one does not have a prayer, so to speak.

Becoming a new creature in baptism.

17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. (2Corinthians (RSV) 5)

This asks the question, how does one become a new creation? There is only one baptism.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians (RSV) 4)

What did Paul do? He gets baptized.

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized,19 and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus. (Acts (RSV) 9)

So what is it that saves one? Baptism.

19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)