Mike Gendron on Baptism

[Shannon9791]

I recently read an article written by Mike Gendron on his PTG website that discussed some of the Anathemas listed during the Council of Trent. One he brought up in particular sparked an interest in me, so I sent him an email asking about it. It says “If anyone says that baptism is optional, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema” and I started by asking him if baptism is necessary for salvation.

His response was:

No, salvation/conversion/being born again is a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.

I then brought up 2 different bible verses where Jesus comments on Baptism (John 3:5 and Mark 16:16) to which is response was:

No, biblical water baptism is for believers after their conversion, but unnecessary for salvation.

I then asked him what he believes Baptism actually is:

Water baptism is an act of obedience after one has been baptized by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 10:47. Water baptism is a public profession of faith and a testimony of one who has been converted and their desire to follow Christ.

So I asked what happens without the act of obedience:

The born again believer is living in disobedience until he obeys

It was at this time when he asked me if I have been “born again” and if so when and how. My goal was to try to go the entire conversation without revealing my Catholicism, because I knew as soon as I let that cat out of the bag, the discussion would take a sharp turn for the worst. But, not being one to back down, I told him that I was born again, but that I didn’t remember it, because it happened when I was 3 or 4 months old. My next question is the one where I think Mike started to realize what was going on. I asked him:

OK, so let’s say the born again believer just says “Ehhh, baptism isn’t necessary, so I’m not going to do it” and lives in that disobedience for the rest of his days, is he saved?

And his answer was:

That would never happen. Faith, belief, trust and obedience are all working together in a new creature in Christ. You see since you are still the natural person you do not understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

Notice the two things he did in that one sentence. First off, he basically says that obedience is necessary for one to be a “new creature in Christ” and that baptism is done out of obedience, and that one is being disobedient by not being baptized. Therefore, he is basically saying that baptism (something one must do to be obedient) is necessary for salvation. Secondly, he’s throwing out a nice little dig at my Catholicism. Saying I am a “natural person” which I don’t even understand what that is, and then saying I don’t understand the things of God.

Finally, I called him on this. I directly asked him again if someone gets baptized whether or not they are saved. His response to this was

Reread all my comments. I will not be responding anymore.

Mike Gendron, ladies and gentlemen, the greatest cut and runner of all time!

I did send him one last email using his quotes to prove to him that he believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, even though he claims he doesn’t. My point in this exercise was to show, much like Church Millitant has several times over, many times someone will actually agree with Church teaching, and swear they don’t. But just by asking questions and pulling that information out of them, you can show that they do agree with what we teach, and hopefully, plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the work. We should all pray for Mike and his staff at PTG that they come to their senses and realize where the real Truth is.

 

[ahs]

Nice seed-planting there, Shannon9791! Let’s hope that prayer will have prepared the seedbed for a fruitful bush.

 

[Patti_M]

Everytime I see this guy or hear that strange voice I have to wonder why anyone in their right mind would listen to such a character. He is so full of hate.

 

[po18guy]

The “Book of Gendron” is an apocryphal work.

Well does Peter teach us:

II Peter 3:15-17
Knox Bible (KNOX)
15 If our Lord stays his hand, count it part of his mercy. Our beloved brother Paul, with the wisdom God has granted him, has written you a letter,[a] 16 in which, as in all his letters, he talks of this. (Though indeed, there are passages in them difficult to understand, and these, like the rest of scripture, are twisted into a wrong sense by ignorant and restless minds, to their own undoing.) 17 For yourselves, beloved, be warned in time; do not be carried away by their rash errors, and lose the firm foothold you have won;

 

[Church_Militant]

I found it. It’s a post on the PTG blog.
** Catholic Anathemas Condemn Christians **

              Written by Mike Gendron on 06 August 2013.

We see there are three characteristics of Rome’s anathemas. They are immutable which means they can never be rescinded. They condemn former Catholics to the torments of everlasting hell unless they do penance and return home to Rome. They condemn current Catholics who do not believe every dogma.

From the CA site.
Could you explain anathema? Does the Church teach that Protestants are anathema because they don’t agree with the Church?

Full Question

Could you explain anathema? Does the Church teach that Protestants are anathema because they don’t agree with the Church?

Answer

The use of the word anathema has evolved during the history of the Church, and today it means the same thing as excommunication. (The word anathema is no longer officially used.) Because a person must be a Catholic to be anathema (excommunicated) the term does not apply to Protestants.

Gendron, as usual, straight up misrepresents Catholic teaching again. It never fails to (sort of) amuse me that he comes out with the statements that he does when it is actually so easy to find the simple facts that refute him and make him look ever less and less credible. It does surprise me that so many people pay him to feed them all this misinformation and propaganda.

We need to continue to read and refute this stuff until at last people begin to see it for what it is and his support system collapses and,(God willing) he (and his boy Jason) repent and come home to the Catholic faith.

BTW, Shannon, Gendron cannot state that one is saved once baptized, because that would cascade his other theological errors and open the door for Catholic teachings to be correct, such as infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, the scriptural necessity of baptism, and the sacramental efficacy of baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

This is one reason that all Militia Immaculata, like me, daily pray for them with the special Miraculous Medal prayer of St. Maximilian Kolbe, which says;

Daily Miraculous Medal Prayer of St. Maximilian
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have
recourse to you, and for all those who do not have re-
course to you, especially the enemies of Holy Church
and all those recommended to you.

 

[Church_Militant]

I found it. It’s a post on the PTG blog.
** Catholic Anathemas Condemn Christians**

              Written by Mike Gendron on 06 August 2013.

From the CA site.
Could you explain anathema? Does the Church teach that Protestants are anathema because they don’t agree with the Church?
Gendron, as usual, straight up misrepresents Catholic teaching again. It never fails to (sort of) amuse me that he comes out with the statements that he does when it is actually so easy to find the simple facts that refute him and make him look ever less and less credible. It does surprise me that so many people pay him to feed them all this misinformation and propaganda.

We need to continue to read and refute this stuff until at last people begin to see it for what it is and his support system collapses and,(God willing) he (and his boy Jason) repent and come home to the Catholic faith.

BTW, Shannon, Gendron cannot state that one is saved once baptized, because that would cascade his other theological errors and open the door for Catholic teachings to be correct, such as infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, the scriptural necessity of baptism, and the sacramental efficacy of baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

This is one reason that all Militia Immaculata, like me, daily pray for them with the special Miraculous Medal prayer of St. Maximilian Kolbe, which says;

Daily Miraculous Medal Prayer of St. Maximilian
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have
recourse to you, and for all those who do not have re-
course to you, especially the enemies of Holy Church
and all those recommended to you.

 

[Shannon9791]

That’s the article I was talking about CM! What’s funny and sad all at the same time is that Gendron, and those of his kind, will make up things or try to reason their way out of Catholic doctrine, when it’s Catholic doctrine that they are teaching! Mike says baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, but baptism IS necessary for obedience and obedience is necessary for salvation. Because I’m a need, let’s break this down math style:

Baptism = Obedience
Obedience = Salvation
Therefore…Baptism = Salvation

Makes sense to me!

 

[Church_Militant]

That’s the article I was talking about CM! What’s funny and sad all at the same time is that Gendron, and those of his kind, will make up things or try to reason their way out of Catholic doctrine, when it’s Catholic doctrine that they are teaching! Mike says baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, but baptism IS necessary for obedience and obedience is necessary for salvation. Because I’m a -]need/-] nerd, let’s break this down math style:

Baptism = Obedience
Obedience = Salvation
Therefore…Baptism = Salvation

Makes sense to me!

Sure it does Shannon, but logic ain’t exactly PTG’s style, or else he’d spend more time actually proclaiming the Gospel instead of falsely banging away at Catholicism. In his case it’s not about really proclaiming much of anything, but just creating controversy where in fact there isn’t any, because, that’s what sells to his crowd and apparently keeps his cash flow up.

We need only to persist in simply offering the facts and all the honest people will abandon him as they realize that he really doesn’t know what the heck he’s talking about and that in many cases his “problems” with Catholicism and the Pope are petty and specious fabrications.

I find it funny that he considers my refutations as attacks (See Mike Gendron doesn’t like me. (Glory be to God!!!)) when I’ve never answered him or his buddy Jason Hauser with the same kind of tone and polemics that they always use against us.http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/3.gif

 

[dblake22]

. . .
He basically says that obedience is necessary for one to be a “new creature in Christ” and that baptism is done out of obedience, and that one is being disobedient by not being baptized. Therefore, he is basically saying that baptism (something one must do to be obedient) is necessary for salvation.

Finally, I directly asked him again if someone gets baptized whether or not they are saved. His response to this was, “Reread all my comments. I will not be responding anymore.” Mike Gendron, ladies and gentlemen, the greatest cut and runner of all time!

I did send him one last email using his quotes to prove to him that he believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, even though he claims he doesn’t.

I have selectively quoted your original post so I could make three observations.

1. 
   *]You are confusing a necessary cause with a necessary result. Mike is saying obedience is a result, you are saying it is a cause. A cause preceeds [salvation], a result follows it.
   *]Mike is not cutting and running. He has already answered your question. Recognizing the futility of the conversation, he has chosen not to repeat himself.
   *]I find it to be pointless in a discussion to claim that you know better than the other person what he himself believes. This is what I encounter all the time talking with non-Catholics. I say I do not worship Mary; their response is that I do. I say we do not crucify Christ again; they say that we do. The conversation goes nowhere if we cannot accept what the other person says about his own beliefs.

 

[yogosans14]

Catholics believe you arent born again until your baptized?Well I disagree but whatever

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholics believe you arent born again until your baptized?Well I disagree but whatever

With very good reason, since Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ specifically tells us that unless one is born again of water and the Spirit he won’t be saved.

Look here at ***John 3:[5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.’
[8] The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”
[9] Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”
[10] Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?
[11] Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.
[12] If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
[13] No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

---

I also suggest that you take a look at the following blog article of mine.

Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

 

[yogosans14]

With very good reason, since Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ specifically tells us that unless one is born again of water and the Spirit he won’t be saved.

Look here at ***John 3:[5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.’
[8] The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”
[9] Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”
[10] Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?
[11] Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.
[12] If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
[13] No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

---

I also suggest that you take a look at the following blog article of mine.

Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

Look at Acts 10:44-47
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

The people received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized. The Holy Ghost does not inhabit unsaved people. The people were saved first, then they were baptized.

 

[Church_Militant]

The Holy Ghost does not inhabit unsaved people. The people were saved first, then they were baptized.

Really? I suggest that you take a look at 1st Samuel 19:9-24 because that is certainly not true.

 

[yogosans14]

Really? I suggest that you take a look at 1st Samuel 19:9-24 because that is certainly not true.

Thats the OT, did you even read the passage I gave to you?

Back in OT times the Holy Spirit would be on believers for a short period of time, unlike today were the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever

 

[Church_Militant]

Thats the OT, did you even read the passage I gave to you?

Back in OT times the Holy Spirit would be on believers for a short period of time, unlike today were the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever

I actually know that passage quite well and it does not support your belief, and your opinion about the OT is also scripturally wrong.

Show me a single New Testament passage that specifically says what you have just asserted…that “the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever” because I happen to know that no such passage exists.

You apparently want to believe the OSAS error (once saved, always saved) but that is not a scriptural doctrine.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

For the sake of argument, where in Acts 10::44-47 does it mention the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit?” It says that the Holy Spirit fell down upon them and that they spoke in tongues. How does this differ from the passage in 1 Samuel? What in the texts justifies that reading?

 

[yogosans14]

I actually know that passage quite well and it does not support your belief, and your opinion about the OT is also scripturally wrong.

Show me a single New Testament passage that specifically says what you have just asserted…that “the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever” because I happen to know that no such passage exists.

You apparently want to believe the OSAS error (once saved, always saved) but that is not a scriptural doctrine.

I do not believe in OSAS, its a Baptist doctrine that I do not adhere to.

(ESV) Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,** and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,** 14 who is hthe guarantee4 of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[Church_Militant]

I do not believe in OSAS, its a Baptist doctrine that I do not adhere to.

(ESV) Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,** and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,** 14 who is hthe guarantee4 of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Great verse, but that does not in any way even infer what you asserted, that “the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever.”

If what you believe was true then how would Our Lord Jesus Christ say the following in ***Revelation 3:5 ***He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In order to have ones name in the book of life, one would have to have been saved, and that would mean the indwelling Holy Spirit, right? Yet our names can be blotted out…

Sure sounds like a case for mortal sins…

Oh…and that overcoming…isn’t that an action? IOW, a work.

 

[yogosans14]

Great verse, but that does not in any way even infer what you asserted, that “the holy spirit indwells in a believer forever.”

If what you believe was true then how would Our Lord Jesus Christ say the following in ***Revelation 3:5 ***He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In order to have ones name in the book of life, one would have to have been saved, and that would mean the indwelling Holy Spirit, right? Yet our names can be blotted out…

My point is that we have the holy spirit in US through accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savoir, not getting baptized. But Baptism is important none the less

 

[SoMissCatholic]

My point is that we have the holy spirit in US through accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savoir, not getting baptized. But Baptism is important none the less

If baptism does not save us, then why does St. Peter say it does?

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.