That is complete nonsense.Of course they have that right but I think not on the basis of it being a cake for a same-sex wedding because that represents discrimination. To put it another way, I’d happily bake a cake for an abortionist. Not because I find abortion remotely acceptable (at least a good 99% of the time) - in fact I would find someone who practices abortion on a daily basis to certainly represent an affront to what I believe in - but I could still bake them a cake.
The use of the Bible as a standard is an iffy proposition without the guidance of the Magisterium which is totally 100% against SSM.Looking back at previous posts, I can see now that was the point you were making.
Ishii
Good Evening RGCheek: I think your post gets to the core of what I see as the problem with this thread. We live in a democracy where much of the population doesn’t share a Catholic view on gay marriage. Some Christian denominations perform gay marriages. Atheists don’t care what Christianity says whatsoever on the matter. Hindus and Jews and Buddhists all have very different belief systems from the Catholic Church. What they all have in common is that they all pay taxes, they all serve to defend our country, they all do jobs that perform jobs that create goods and services for all of us. And that includes gay people. They pay taxes, many serve in the military, many have died on combat, serve on police forces, save our lives when we come to the emergency room, transport our broken bodies in ambulances to the hospital when we are sick or injured, and you are having a hissy fit because you might have to bake them a cake when they try to celebrate their lives like you do. As a fellow Catholic who lives in a democracy, all I can say is this is a very myopic view of the world we live in that you have there. It’s religious intolerance, and that is what this country has stood against since it’s inception. Gay people and people who believe differently than us aren’t attempting to trump Christianity as you have said. They have simply shown the audacity to try and live their lives on equal footing alongside people and institutions that have stomped on them for countless centuries. I applaud them, and if I could, I would bake a cake for every one of them. That is all I really have to say to people who share your view RGCheek.That is complete nonsense.
Why does the gay world view that marriage is just about companionship trump the Christian world view that makes it exclusively heterosexual?
Answer: because Christians no longer have equal standing before the law. Just as gays do not have to bake cakes that are offensive to them if requested by Christians, Christians should have the same rights, but we don’t due to inequality before the law under the new ‘reasonable minority standard’.
I think you as a Catholic are missing the larger point.You should know that marriage as it has always been is God’s law.Not yours,not mine.It isn’t intolerant to want to follow God’s plan for marriage. I think all too often political correctness has taken precedence over truth.Just look at what is happening in San Franscisco.Self identified Catholics are taking out lage full page ads in the newspaper decrying Archbishop Cordelieone’s position on Catholic schools actually adhering to Catholic teaching!Are you in agreement with these people publicly chastising their Archbishop,because they think they know better than he?Again these aren’t Archbishop Cordeleone’s rules,these are Christ’s’ commands.I find it appalling that our Shepard’s are being persecuted for being loyal to Christ and his Church.Good Evening RGCheek: I think your post gets to the core of what I see as the problem with this thread. We live in a democracy where much of the population doesn’t share a Catholic view on gay marriage. Some Christian denominations perform gay marriages. Atheists don’t care what Christianity says whatsoever on the matter. Hindus and Jews and Buddhists all have very different belief systems from the Catholic Church. What they all have in common is that they all pay taxes, they all serve to defend our country, they all do jobs that perform jobs that create goods and services for all of us. And that includes gay people. They pay taxes, many serve in the military, many have died on combat, serve on police forces, save our lives when we come to the emergency room, transport our broken bodies in ambulances to the hospital when we are sick or injured, and you are having a hissy fit because you might have to bake them a cake when they try to celebrate their lives like you do. As a fellow Catholic who lives in a democracy, all I can say is this is a very myopic view of the world we live in that you have there. It’s religious intolerance, and that is what this country has stood against since it’s inception. Gay people and people who believe differently than us aren’t attempting to trump Christianity as you have said. They have simply shown the audacity to try and live their lives on equal footing alongside people and institutions that have stomped on them for countless centuries. I applaud them, and if I could, I would bake a cake for every one of them. That is all I really have to say to people who share your view RGCheek.
And yes, I am a Catholic!
All the best
Gary
Having read your earlier words, “there are no answers. Everything is relative. We don’t know anything” I am not surprised at all by your post above. Again, go back to the 1950’s -when people were “pushing their religious views” on others. I guess you would have let the Jim Crow laws stand? Not want to push your views on others who disagree with you?Good Evening RGCheek: I think your post gets to the core of what I see as the problem with this thread. We live in a democracy where much of the population doesn’t share a Catholic view on gay marriage. Some Christian denominations perform gay marriages. Atheists don’t care what Christianity says whatsoever on the matter. Hindus and Jews and Buddhists all have very different belief systems from the Catholic Church. What they all have in common is that they all pay taxes, they all serve to defend our country, they all do jobs that perform jobs that create goods and services for all of us. And that includes gay people. They pay taxes, many serve in the military, many have died on combat, serve on police forces, save our lives when we come to the emergency room, transport our broken bodies in ambulances to the hospital when we are sick or injured, and you are having a hissy fit because you might have to bake them a cake when they try to celebrate their lives like you do. As a fellow Catholic who lives in a democracy, all I can say is this is a very myopic view of the world we live in that you have there. It’s religious intolerance, and that is what this country has stood against since it’s inception. Gay people and people who believe differently than us aren’t attempting to trump Christianity as you have said. They have simply shown the audacity to try and live their lives on equal footing alongside people and institutions that have stomped on them for countless centuries. I applaud them, and if I could, I would bake a cake for every one of them. That is all I really have to say to people who share your view RGCheek.
And yes, I am a Catholic!
All the best
Gary
Good Evening Jeanne, Actually, I don’t think you are seeing my point. What I believe with regard to how I conduct my own life is in line with the church I belong to. What you and I do not have the right to do is try to force that on anyone else, nor does anyone else have the right to force their beliefs on us. If we want to live among other people, we have to respect them. If we want to only live around other Catholics there are still orders you can join that allow you to do that. But if we want to live with the rest of the world, well, the rest of the world comes with it.I think you as a Catholic are missing the larger point.You should know that marriage as it has always been is God’s law.Not yours,not mine.It isn’t intolerant to want to follow God’s plan for marriage. I think all too often political correctness has taken precedence over truth.Just look at what is happening in San Franscisco.Self identified Catholics are taking out lage full page ads in the newspaper decrying Archbishop Cordelieone’s position on Catholic schools actually adhering to Catholic teaching!Are you in agreement with these people publicly chastising their Archbishop,because they think they know better than he?Again these aren’t Archbishop Cordeleone’s rules,these are Christ’s’ commands.I find it appalling that our Shepard’s are being persecuted for being loyal to Christ and his Church.
Having read your earlier words, “there are no answers. Everything is relative. We don’t know anything” I am not surprised at all by your post above. Again, go back to the 1950’s -when people were “pushing their religious views” on others. I guess you would have let the Jim Crow laws stand? Not want to push your views on others who disagree with you?
That small minority seems to really have you in a twist Ishii. Go to bed.Regarding the bakery issue - you have it backwards. What we have here is a small minority of gays (allied with the secular left) ramming gay marriage down the throat of a society which, almost every time it has come to a vote, has rejected that lifestyle. Would you defend an anti gay group going to a gay owned bakery and demanding they bake an anti-gay cake? Would you demand that the gay bakery bake them the cake?
Gary, are my questions too difficult for you? Here they are again:From Ishii:
That small minority seems to really have you in a twist Ishii. Go to bed.
All the best,
Gary
IshiiAgain, go back to the 1950’s -when people were “pushing their religious views” on others. I guess you would have let the Jim Crow laws stand? Not want to push your views on others who disagree with you?
Would you defend an anti gay group going to a gay owned bakery and demanding they bake an anti-gay cake? Would you demand that the gay bakery bake them the cake?
Ishii
Morally decadent societies cannot last long. They usually confront tough enemies and are unable to make the sacrifices necessary to maintain their existence. What’s going to happen in 30 years when a country like China can match our military? Do you really think our citizens are going to have the guts and willingness to sacrifice their lives and property in a serious conflict? Doubt it, we’ll end up rolling over and taking orders.People who cannot differentiate between the two are suffering from a moral decadence that has advanced past the critical phase.
Gary,the point I am trying to make is,as Catholics/Christians we are called to be Christ’s eye’s,ear’s,and voice ,etc.,here on earth. You mention you are Catholic and believe in the Church’s stance on marriage,however in the real world,it is not up to you to voice this truth.It seems you want to go along to get along.This isn’t really living out your faith.Christ said we would be persecuted if we were faithful to him. Additionally,the loving and actual Christian action is to draw our brothers and sisters to Christ.Allowing them to live in a manner that is detrimental to their eternal souls is actually the greater harm.This was my point with political correctness clouding the issue. We as a society have been so indoctrinated into this way of thinking,to each his own,that it is now evident that allowing everyone to do their own thing is creating spiritual and social chaos.Good Evening Jeanne, Actually, I don’t think you are seeing my point. What I believe with regard to how I conduct my own life is in line with the church I belong to. What you and I do not have the right to do is try to force that on anyone else, nor does anyone else have the right to force their beliefs on us. If we want to live among other people, we have to respect them. If we want to only live around other Catholics there are still orders you can join that allow you to do that. But if we want to live with the rest of the world, well, the rest of the world comes with it.
The problem you mentioned in San Francisco is not a problem with outsiders attacking Christianity. It’s a problem among Catholics and between Catholics. I think that’s a whole different matter personally.
All the best,
Gary
I think you are right, many people in the US expect nothing this bad to ever happen and would not be prepared to deal with it, they would give up pretty quickly imo.Morally decadent societies cannot last long. They usually confront tough enemies and are unable to make the sacrifices necessary to maintain their existence. What’s going to happen in 30 years when a country like China can match our military? Do you really think our citizens are going to have the guts and willingness to sacrifice their lives and property in a serious conflict? Doubt it, we’ll end up rolling over and taking orders.
It is up to me to voice what I think is the truth, yes. However, in a democratic society others have the right to voice what they think is the truth as well. It is not my place to legislate my Catholic morality on Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Methodists and the rest, nor is it their right to force me to live my own life in a manner other than what I have chosen. This is what the discourse is about.Gary,the point I am trying to make is,as Catholics/Christians we are called to be Christ’s eye’s,ear’s,and voice ,etc.,here on earth. You mention you are Catholic and believe in the Church’s stance on marriage,however in the real world,it is not up to you to voice this truth.It seems you want to go along to get along.This isn’t really living out your faith.Christ said we would be persecuted if we were faithful to him. Additionally,the loving and actual Christian action is to draw our brothers and sisters to Christ.Allowing them to live in a manner that is detrimental to their eternal souls is actually the greater harm.This was my point with political correctness clouding the issue. We as a society have been so indoctrinated into this way of thinking,to each his own,that it is now evident that allowing everyone to do their own thing is creating spiritual and social chaos.
.
It may not be your right,however it is your responsibility as a follower of Christ,to make his message of Truth known to all…Christ said pray that you aren’t put to the test.I believe that applies in both large and smaller ways.Christians are dying for Our Lord in all parts of the Middlec East.Christians here and the world over are being forced,by legislative fiat to forego their beliefs or otherwise lose their businesses.All in an effort to normalize into society that which is not.Whether it is be SS marriage,abortion ,to say you cannot legislate morality on the rest of the world,well why are they allowed to legislate immorality on the world?It is up to me to voice what I think is the truth, yes. However, in a democratic society others have the right to voice what they think is the truth as well. It is not my place to legislate my Catholic morality on Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Methodists and the rest, nor is it their right to force me to live my own life in a manner other than what I have chosen. This is what the discourse is about.
All the best
Gary
It is my opinion that the best way to do that is to set an example with how I live my own life. Personally, I would rather see a sermon than hear one any day. In other words people remember what you do, not so much what you say.It may not be your right,however it is your responsibility as a follower of Christ,to make his message of Truth known to all…
The Japanese were counting on that back in 1941 as well. They thought we were fat , dumb and lazy. Turns out we weren’t lazy.I think you are right, many people in the US expect nothing this bad to ever happen and would not be prepared to deal with it, they would give up pretty quickly imo.
Setting an example by the way we live our lives and opposing laws that denigrate our Faith are not mutually exclusive. We are perfectly capable of doing both. In fact that is exactly what our Church calls upon us to do.It is my opinion that the best way to do that is to set an example with how I live my own life. Personally, I would rather see a sermon than hear one any day. In other words people remember what you do, not so much what you say.
All the best
Gary
Unfortunately,actions aren’t enough.How can we as Christians combat the assault on our moral beliefs if we don’t voice them?Did Christ only walk on this earth,in the belief that his disciples would follow,without him speaking any words?No,he told them go out and make disciples of all nations.I really think you are dodging the issue by choosing to not speak out.You also,never responded to my question as to why it is ok to legislate immorality yet we cannot or should not try to legislate morality.Do you want to win souls for God or for Satan?It is my opinion that the best way to do that is to set an example with how I live my own life. Personally, I would rather see a sermon than hear one any day. In other words people remember what you do, not so much what you say.
All the best
Gary
Good Afternoon Jeanne: I’m actually not dodging anything, and I might point out that jawboning Catholic morality on a Catholic website where 99% of the people agree with you isn’t really doing much to bring about social change. Insofar as issues such as gay marriage is concerned, I really don’t have a dog in that race. The Church I belong to doesn’t do gay marriages and I am not attracted to guys. What other churches and other people do with weddings is not of much interest to me.Unfortunately,actions aren’t enough.How can we as Christians combat the assault on our moral beliefs if we don’t voice them?Did Christ only walk on this earth,in the belief that his disciples would follow,without him speaking any words?No,he told them go out and make disciples of all nations.I really think you are dodging the issue by choosing to not speak out.You also,never responded to my question as to why it is ok to legislate immorality yet we cannot or should not try to legislate morality.Do you want to win souls for God or for Satan?
It never ceases to amaze me how often the point is sailed serenely past…The “gay world view” (the “marriage equality” view" is not trumping the Christian one. It’s just being set in a level playing field which, frankly, is something any American ought to champion because that idea is the founding principle of the country in the first place.That is complete nonsense.
Why does the gay world view that marriage is just about companionship trump the Christian world view that makes it exclusively heterosexual?
Answer: because Christians no longer have equal standing before the law. Just as gays do not have to bake cakes that are offensive to them if requested by Christians, Christians should have the same rights, but we don’t due to inequality before the law under the new ‘reasonable minority standard’.