Mike Huckabee: U.S. moving toward 'criminalization of Christianity'

[JimG]

So, if the playing field is level, then gays will have the right to marry while Christians will have the right to not recognize those marriages without being penalized by the law?

 

[Darryl1958]

If the playing field was level, marriage would not have been redefined in the first place.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Good Afternoon Jeanne: I’m actually not dodging anything, and I might point out that jawboning Catholic morality on a Catholic website where 99% of the people agree with you isn’t really doing much to bring about social change. Insofar as issues such as gay marriage is concerned, I really don’t have a dog in that race. The Church I belong to doesn’t do gay marriages and I am not attracted to guys. What other churches and other people do with weddings is not of much interest to me.

On the other hand, on issues that protect life, I am very politically active and have spent long hours on campaigns to protect life. That’s a different matter, because the killing of unborn children, death row inmates and non-combatants is not a matter of mutual consent.
The ONLY thing that might persuade me to give up these fights is the homophobia I have to put up with listening to when I’m around people who are like minded with me on pro life campaigns. It’s tiresome, and frankly not something I care about. I have probably received The Eucharist from as many gay people as I have straight, if you get my meaning.

All the best
Gary

In response to this,I will ask if you ,through today’s gospel and readings perked up a bit.It as I am sure you already know,about Christ being the vine,we are the fruit.We must stay close to him and his commands to bear fruit.This spoke to me as it pertains to this discussion.Very simplyChrist is the away,the Truth and the Life.We as a society cannot continue to exist as a people who choose to live and let live,especially in a way that is detrimental not only to the individuals engaging in such behaviors but to aour society as a whole. Moral relativism is not based on truth as truth is not subjective.

As an aside re gay people.It is not ssa that is sinful it is acting on the desires,surely you know that.The family as it has always been defined is crucial to the well being of society. You say for you it isn’t an issue,it should be.
This was posted in our bulletin:
Spiritual Works of Mercy
Admonish sinners
Instruct the uninformed
Counsel the doubtful
Comfort the sorrowful
Be patient with those in error
Forgive offenses
Pray for the living and the dead
How pertinent to this debate

 

[ishii]

So, if the playing field is level, then gays will have the right to marry while Christians will have the right to not recognize those marriages without being penalized by the law?

This was never about a level playing field. It has always been about left fundamentally transforming our society - and undermining the institutions of marriage, the Church, etc - the things that would naturally stand in opposition to this transformation.

Huckabee gets this. And so do many Catholics. Unfortunately, as evidenced by this thread, many Catholics don’t get it, or don’t care.

Ishii

 

[JimG]

This was never about a level playing field. It has always been about left fundamentally transforming our society - and undermining the institutions of marriage, the Church, etc - the things that would naturally stand in opposition to this transformation.

Huckabee gets this. And so do many Catholics. Unfortunately, as evidenced by this thread, many Catholics don’t get it, or don’t care.

Ishii

I agree with you here. But the left doesn’t even believe its own rhetoric about equality. It wishes not to give Christians equal treatment, but to penalize them, run them out of business, and criminalize them for their beliefs.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

In response to this,I will ask if you ,through today’s gospel and readings perked up a bit.It as I am sure you already know,about Christ being the vine,we are the fruit.We must stay close to him and his commands to bear fruit.This spoke to me as it pertains to this discussion.Very simplyChrist is the away,the Truth and the Life.We as a society cannot continue to exist as a people who choose to live and let live,especially in a way that is detrimental not only to the individuals engaging in such behaviors but to aour society as a whole. Moral relativism is not based on truth as truth is not subjective.

As an aside re gay people.It is not ssa that is sinful it is acting on the desires,surely you know that.The family as it has always been defined is crucial to the well being of society. You say for you it isn’t an issue,it should be.
This was posted in our bulletin:
Spiritual Works of Mercy
Admonish sinners
Instruct the uninformed
Counsel the doubtful
Comfort the sorrowful
Be patient with those in error
Forgive offenses
Pray for the living and the dead
How pertinent to this debate

Good Afternoon Jeanne: I am the vine and you are the branches means a whole lot more than “stick close to Jesus.” The statement, coupled with the mystery of the Eucharist is a philosophical bombshell for those who have no understanding of the other religious teachings that came out of the axial age. And Jesus sometimes sounds as though he was may have been exposed to people who were familiar with some of those teachings, which is what made Him a bit different than the other dozen or so Messiahs who were making the circuit at the same time He was. Couple that verse with His ideas on what you do to others being the same as what you do to Him, and you have the almost certain conclusion that He had contact with Essenes or even Vedic philosophy in some way or another. These are some points that made Him radically different from the run of the mill 1st century Messiah (and again, there were lots of them). And I find that aspect of today’s Gospel much more meaningful and compelling than how it might relate to what gay people are doing or what kinds of plastic figures people put on cakes.

By the way, if you were a person who carves tombstones for a living, would you refuse to put a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pranava Mantra on a customer’s tombstone just because you’re not Jewish, Muslim or Hindu? The first two of these religions flat out deny the divinity of Jesus and the most famous leader of the third religion in the past hundred years said he was very much annoyed by Christians. So, are you just picking on gay Christians out of habit?

All the best,
Gary

 

[Jeanne_S]

Good Afternoon Jeanne: I am the vine and you are the branches means a whole lot more than “stick close to Jesus.” The statement, coupled with the mystery of the Eucharist is a philosophical bombshell for those who have no understanding of the other religious teachings that came out of the axial age. And Jesus sometimes sounds as though he was may have been exposed to people who were familiar with some of those teachings, which is what made Him a bit different than the other dozen or so Messiahs who were making the circuit at the same time He was. Couple that verse with His ideas on what you do to others being the same as what you do to Him, and you have the almost certain conclusion that He had contact with Essenes or even Vedic philosophy in some way or another. These are some points that made Him radically different from the run of the mill 1st century Messiah (and again, there were lots of them). And I find that aspect of today’s Gospel much more meaningful and compelling than how it might relate to what gay people are doing or what kinds of plastic figures people put on cakes.

By the way, if you were a person who carves tombstones, would you refuse to put a star of David or a Crescent or a Pranava Mantra on a customer’s tombstone just because you’re not Jewish, Muslim or Hindu? Or are you just picking on gay Christians out of habit?

All the best,
Gary

This last paragraph,is apples to oranges.I am not picking on gay Christians,how in the world did this debate evolve into this assertion??The OP thread is about Christains being persecuted and marginalized by those who are intent in forcing their agenda upon saidvChristians.I think you are intentionally deflecting from the original debate because you realize your arguments fall flat in face of the truths and teachings of the Catholic faith to which you profess to belong.

 

[RGCheek]

It never ceases to amaze me how often the point is sailed serenely past…The “gay world view” (the “marriage equality” view" is not trumping the Christian one. It’s just being set in a level playing field which, frankly, is something any American ought to champion because that idea is the founding principle of the country in the first place.

No, you cannot ‘set it on an even playing field’ without adopting the world view that gays have adopted and many others have as well, that marriage is about companionship instead of procreating the next generation.

And THAT world view was given completely over-riding importance simply because the gays are a minority and thus the point of view of the majority made no difference and was ignored.

YOU don’t get what we are telling you. We understand what the gays are saying about what marriage is and reject it categorically.

 

[RGCheek]

So, if the playing field is level, then gays will have the right to marry while Christians will have the right to not recognize those marriages without being penalized by the law?

No, because the traditional majority view of what marriage is irrelevant in our court system today as the ‘reasonable minority standard’ is the new standard for determining behavioral standards when a minority has a conflict with a majority person in our society now.

Members of the majority in every category have lost their equal standing before the law.

 

[Murmurs]

No, you cannot ‘set it on an even playing field’ without adopting the world view that gays have adopted and many others have as well, that marriage is about companionship instead of procreating the next generation.

Does that even matter? Why does it matter?

No one is stopping Catholics/other Christians/whomever from having a different understanding of marriage! Just that in a legal framework one understanding shouldn’t be preferenced. And given that not irregularly you read of churches/other catholic or Christian employers firing people for being in a SSM, or for having children outside of marriage, or in some other way somehow bizarrely affronting precious religious sensibilities - and such firing decisions being upheld - no one can hardly say that Christian understanding of anything is being remotely criminalised or persecuted.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Does that even matter? Why does it matter?

No one is stopping Catholics/other Christians/whomever from having a different undserstanding of marriage! Just that in a legal framework one understanding shouldn’t be preferenced. And given that not irregularly you read of churches/other catholic or Christian employers firing people for being in a SSM, or for having children outside of marriage, or in some other way somehow bizarrely affronting precious religious sensibilities - and such firing decisions being upheld - no one can hardly say that Christian understanding of anything is being remotely criminalised or persecuted.

Really? What about the numerous businesses being forced to either comply or shut their doors.not to mention some of the exorbitant fines imposed.Additionally,Jack Phillips,being ordered to take sensitivity classes to boot.What a bunch of nonsense!For the umpteenth time,these two homosexuals,wanting him to bake a cake co could have taken their request to any number of other bakeries.No,they intentionally sought out Jack Phillips with the sole intention of causing a uproar. I keep hearing,Christians need to shut up and put up.How about the other side of the coin.Leaving Christians in peace to live out their faith?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Really? What about the numerous businesses being forced to either comply or shut their doors.not to mention some of the exorbitant fines imposed.Additionally,Jack Phillips,being ordered to take sensitivity classes to boot.What a bunch of nonsense!For the umpteenth time,these two homosexuals,wanting him to bake a cake co could have taken their request to any number of other bakeries.No,they intentionally sought out Jack Phillips with the sole intention of causing a uproar. I keep hearing,Christians need to shut up and put up.How about the other side of the coin.Leaving Christians in peace to live out their faith?

I thought you just asked me what this whole thing has to do with gay people and wedding cakes. And there you go again with gay people and wedding cakes. I didn’t even know this was an issue before I ran into you guys here on this thread. And to me, it’s still not an issue. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who gets into trouble with the law over discrimination. In fact, I like it. I like it a lot. It is against the law to refuse serving someone because of their race, gender. nationality or beliefs. These two gentleman seem to believe gay people can get married and apparently they were getting married in compliance with the law. The fines levied on the bakery owner are most righteous and just. He’s a bigot. Bigots get fines when they run their businesses like bigots. In fact, I am not planning any weddings, nor am I gay, but I might go all over town ordering wedding cakes with two grooms over the next year to see if I can conjure up some bigots that the law needs to be aware of. I have lots of money and can buy lots of cakes. Thanks for the idea.

All the best
Gary

 

[Jeanne_S]

I thought you just asked me what this whole thing has to do with gay people and wedding cakes. And there you go again with gay people and wedding cakes. I didn’t even know this was an issue before I ran into you guys here on this thread. And to me, it’s still not an issue. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who gets into trouble with the law over discrimination. In fact, I like it. I like it a lot.

All the best
Gary

Maybe you need to go back and re read your own posts.I asked you what in the world did this thread have to do with not providing tombstones to those of other faiths,then your added comment on I was just picking of Christian gays.You are all over the place with this!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Maybe you need to go back and re read your own posts.I asked you what in the world did this thread have to do with not providing tombstones to those of other faiths,then your added comment on I was just picking of Christian gays.You are all over the place with this!

It’s the same issue Jeanne. That’s why I mentioned it. I defend the law, because the law defends us all. On the same token that a business can’t discriminate against someone for having a gay marriage, they can’t discriminate against you or me for walking into an establishment or refuse to serve us for wearing a crucifix or for blessing ourselves before we eat. I don’t do either of those things because I don’t wear jewelry or make public displays, but the law says I can if I like.

All the best
Gary

 

[Jeanne_S]

It’s the same issue Jeanne. That’s why I mentioned it. I defend the law, because the law defends us all. On the same token that a business can’t discriminate against someone for having a gay marriage, they can’t discriminate against you or me for walking into an establishment or refuse to serve us for wearing a crucifix or for blessing ourselves before we eat. I don’t do either of those things because I don’t wear jewelry or make public displays, but the law says I can if I like.

All the best
Gary

So,where did the law defend Jack Phillips and other businesses owners,re their religious freedom? All any of this is really about is forcing the gay agenda on society.Tell me,where do we draw the line?What is most troubling is not only you,but others on this forum who profess to believe the truths and teaching of Christ’s Church,yet out of the other side of the mouth,say actually,the Church has no business objecting to the gay agenda,at least not in the public square.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

So,where did the law defend Jack Phillips and other businesses owners,re their religious freedom? All any of this is really about is forcing the gay agenda on society.Tell me,where do we draw the line?What is most troubling is not only you,but others on this forum who profess to believe the truths and teaching of Christ’s Church,yet out of the other side of the mouth,say actually,the Church has no business objecting to the gay agenda,at least not in the public square.

Actually, I think you have missed the point. Jack Phillips committed an offense for which he was fined. The gay couple has the right to buy the same services as any of us and the right to buy them in the same places. I have explained this to you in a number of ways, but let me try again. The gay couple who sent for the cake probably belong to a church that is okay with gay marriages. Or perhaps they are atheists. As Americans, they have the right to be either of these. Those same laws allow you and I to be Catholic. The law also guarantees them the pursuit of happiness like it does for you and I. Imagine then if you lived in Alabama or someplace that is heavily conservative protestant, and most of your neighbors thought you were a brainwashed papist. My town was like that 25 years ago by the way. Imagine then that you went somewhere to buy a cake with a crucifix on it and they turned you away because you were a “papist.” It’s the exact same thing.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Jeanne_S]

Actually, I think you have missed the point. Jack Phillips committed an offense for which he was fined. The gay couple has the right to buy the same services as any of us and the right to buy them in the same places. I have explained this to you in a number of ways, but let me try again. The gay couple who sent for the cake probably belong to a church that is okay with gay marriages. Or perhaps they are atheists. As Americans, they have the right to be either of these. Those same laws allow you and I to be Catholic. The law also guarantees them the pursuit of happiness like it does for you and I. Imagine then if you lived in Alabama or someplace that is heavily conservative protestant, and most of your neighbors thought you were a brainwashed papist. My town was like that 25 years ago by the way. Imagine then that you went somewhere to buy a cake with a crucifix on it and they turned you away because you were a “papist.” It’s the exact same thing.

All the best,
Gary

He wasn’t denying them the opportunity to purchase a all ready made cake,they could then have decorated it any way the wanted to.After the cake leaves the bakery it is out of the control of the designer as to what purchasers choose to do with it.However,the baker is fully within his rights to say,sorry I do not do that type of cake,be it for homosexuals,pedophiles,abortionists,witches satanists.How can he be forced to do something he doesn’t provide in the first place.He referred them to an equally good bakery across the street,that wouldn’t do,because you see,they just wanted to hassle the Christian baker.
You refuse to concede the fact this baker was setup by these guys.
Most of the scenarios you put forth are apples to oranges. You know there are bakeries that specialize in decorating cakes with sexual content on them.Should baskets that object to this also be forced to decorate cakes in this way?I think not.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

He wasn’t denying them the opportunity to purchase a all ready made cake,they could then have decorated it any way the wanted to.After the cake leaves the bakery it is out of the control of the designer as to what purchasers choose to do with it.However,the baker is fully within his rights to say,sorry I do not do that type of cake,be it for homosexuals,pedophiles,abortionists,witches satanists.How can he be forced to do something he doesn’t provide in the first place.He referred them to an equally good bakery across the street,that wouldn’t do,because you see,they just wanted to hassle the Christian baker.
You refuse to concede the fact this baker was setup by these guys.
Most of the scenarios you put forth are apples to oranges. You know there are bakeries that specialize in decorating cakes with sexual content on them.Should baskets that object to this also be forced to decorate cakes in this way?I think not.

Good Evening Jeanne: The baker was not only breaking the law, the baker was stupid to take the bait on the setup. But here we are with the wedding cakes again. We live in a curious world Jeanne. Before you and I wake up tomorrow, 21,000 people who were alive this morning will be dead. From hunger. Most of them children actually. 3.1 million children every year. And I come to this website and have to talk to people for three days about a baker with no head for business. There can only be two reasons why I might keep discussing this with you. Either I’m an idiot, or I care. Actually it’s both. How unfortunate for me.

The subject of this thread is Christianity being criminalized. If all we can do as Catholics is argue for three days about a wedding cake while 63,000 people die from hunger in that same timespan, well, maybe we should be criminalized. Or at least ridiculed or something, don’t you think?

All the best
Gary

 

[Jeanne_S]

Good Evening Jeanne: The baker was not only breaking the law, the baker was stupid to take the bait on the setup. But here we are with the wedding cakes again. We live in a curious world Jeanne. Before you and I wake up tomorrow, 21,000 people who were alive this morning will be dead. From hunger. Most of them children actually. 3.1 million children every year. And I come to this website and have to talk to people for three days about a baker with no head for business. There can only be two reasons why I might keep discussing this with you. Either I’m an idiot, or I care. Actually it’s both. How unfortunate for me.

The subject of this thread is Christianity being criminalized. If all we can do as Catholics is argue for three days about a wedding cake while 63,000 people die from hunger in that same timespan, well, maybe we should be criminalized. Or at least ridiculed or something, don’t you think?

All the best
Gary

Way to deflect from the debate. It has gotten to where we are beating a dead horse. You see it your way and I see it mine.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Way to deflect from the debate. .

I think I have explained it very clearly with regard to the debate.

You see it your way and I see it mine

Exactly. That is what the law is about. You not being able to legislate the way someone else lives in order to have the lives of others fall into compliance to the way you see it. Especially when others see it differently. The law allows you and I to be as Catholic as we like as long as we don’t interfere in any way with the manner in which others lawfully practice what they believe.

All the best
Gary