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GKC
Guest
It is possible that we have communicated.It still does (not ruling out grey bits on the way there, though). Call it trusting in providence.
For each of us, agreed - at the end. Joy and peace in the meantime.
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friardchips
Guest
It was indeed a Christmas interval to silence the bombs of war. And as long as there is always this possibility in debate then we can still call ourselves human.
So may I also take this opportunity to hold out a friendly hand to any poster as I ask them to join me in the ‘Green Man Traffic Light’ (question and answer) game…?!
Is there a Sage? If so, who?
Are they green? Or maybe blue?
Where are they?And if so, where?
D)Play ‘Green Man Traffic Light’, if you dare?!
Rules will follow in due course…
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friardchips
Guest
Just sillyness again.
I think it is natural that the bigwigs thought of Yoga because it is multi-billion dollar industry, and so was just a matter of time - a natural occurrence. It is has been introduced on many levels, as these articles suggest, to help people with military-related issues and illnesses, so, as I said, conspiracy theorists have no claim really to suggest weird interpretations, but I do think still there is some room to theorise over how well and accurately the military, or rather, those that put Yoga before them, have properly looked into or thought about the subject?! Have they thought about the consequences to a far enough degree, to the finite details.
However, Yoga must have really taken root in the military now, by 2015.
(As some of these links are from as far back as 2003!).
What I would be interested in knowing, is who thought of introducing Yoga into the army?
I think it is natural that the bigwigs thought of Yoga because it is multi-billion dollar industry, and so was just a matter of time - a natural occurrence. It is has been introduced on many levels, as these articles suggest, to help people with military-related issues and illnesses, so, as I said, conspiracy theorists have no claim really to suggest weird interpretations, but I do think still there is some room to theorise over how well and accurately the military, or rather, those that put Yoga before them, have properly looked into or thought about the subject?! Have they thought about the consequences to a far enough degree, to the finite details.
However, Yoga must have really taken root in the military now, by 2015.
(As some of these links are from as far back as 2003!).
What I would be interested in knowing, is who thought of introducing Yoga into the army?
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GKC
Guest
As I said, fads, as well as innovative and useful management techniques, and what we called technological targets of opportunity, enter the military from a number of directions and have done so, forever. No one person necessarily thought of introducing yoga. It was a cultural feature and someone, from below, may have decided to try it, in a given situation, and see what happens. Word of that can spread, and others might emulate, at a local level. Any buzz that generated can percolate up the chain, and seek to attract what amounts to a sponsor for the innovation. Trials in its application can lead to more or less support. Eventually it might be considered a sufficient success to suggest standardizing it, within limits of applicability (which is with respect to the military’s need, not the theoretical range of applicability. Note that). Implementing and governing documents as well as detailed instructions for its application can be imposed. Training, whether organic or contractor, set up to teach the teachers. Eventually all this will either be judged successful, or be found a waste of time or money. The latter often attracts folks who want to make their bones by revolutionizing/revamping/reorganizing the now stale status quo, and solve a perceived problem. Which is precisely what can bring about the implementation of the innovation in the first place.
Contrary-wise, such a program can originate at some level of authority that can impose it, downward. This can originate in some genius idea the authority holds, or has found, in the popular culture. The life cycle of the fad will follow the same path, downward to the troop level. Its fate is likely to be the same. If it succeeds in any sense, it might be retained. Or, its life span might be limited to the tenure of its sponsors.
Stuff like this goes on all the time. I watched various management fads, discovered in industry, or in academia, flourish and fall, or sometimes, make sense and be retained. Until the next generation of inspiration. Zero defects, management by objectives, just in time supply, were once puissant principles that intruded in the daily business. They fell off the radar long before I retired. Or, the structure of the weapon system acquisition business, as introduced in the original Minuteman program, derived from managerial theory and industrial experience, was strong for years before and throughout my career. Still is, in some sense. But it was a top down directed innovation, that mostly worked. Or the instructional system development model, adapted from academic theory and pedagogical principles, came in, similarly, and I was one of the word’s greatest experts on it, in a particular application.
Note that all these programs or innovations didn’t swallow a theoretical program in toto. It’s always adapted for the military needs. Thus, what outcomes it produces are always measured and mensurated against the desired outcomes, often by opponents of the new system, looking to kill it. It doesn’t just run on auto. And failure to do what it desired is the inspiration for the next round of useful or useless innovations. If, as you say, yoga has been around for a dozen years, somewhere and at some level in the military, that’s 12 years to find some evidence that it, as implemented, has introduced the Land of the Lotus Eaters. Not might, if done as it is done in some civilian programs, but has done so, as done in the military. Someone, looking for a scalp, would have noticed. And the next fad will bring in Widgets for Midgets (as I called the Next Big thing, in my career, whenever I saw it looming on the horizon. And there’s always one looming on the horizon.
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friardchips
Guest
This (in bold) answers the next (underlined).
Noted.
From a more rational persective, it was probably the case of lower down to up. Neither can be proved unless someone said: “It was my idea!”.
It was reported that Yoga was adapted for “needs”.
So: start of fad; assessed outcomes during; success or failure - some part or whole of said-fad.
Yes (in bold), and, if it was just exercise they were after then Yoga would not have been the most obvious solution. Also…
The fact they’ve also been using it to treat military illnesses points to the ‘other side’ of Yoga and impetus for further investigation:
Patient complains. Sees military psychologist. Then goes to Yoga practioner. Soldier goes back to troops feeling a bit better. Soldier revisits medic, who says: “Socks up soldier, how you doin’?” And there we have the beginnings of said-fad.
As said, they have sikhs training them - unnecessary, if training is only simple exercise.
In fact, we could simplify by saying that Yoga is not Yoga unless entailing the baggage marked ‘X-Files’. Yoga is a sum of its parts, IOW. There is no easy separation.
But you stating how regimentally target-based any enterprise is in the military, begs the question: when, how and why soldiers who were not not ill, began training with the use of Yoga…
What caused the army - what success in what practices - to deem it okay in reports for the use of Yoga to continue in
A. Medical department.
B. Normal training?!!
Was the practice or practices of Yoga challenged - as you said: if so, might have made the process come to a stop - and if not, why not?
A. No valuable challenge.
B. Challenged but ignored.
D. Yoga was kept secret (unlikely as it was reported on).
What ‘strain’ of Yoga was kept and what strains were left?
How was this deemed possible to split Yoga into strands?
When did the military bring in Sikhs, and why?
None of this can point to effective use in military ops.
Only proof is in effective enhancment (or not) of troop’s performance in training.
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GKC
Guest
Last sentence is quite true (objectively). Though eventually the whole thing will be replaced by Widgets for Midgets. The Next Big thing.
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tomarin
Guest
The only flaw I can see in this plan is that the foreign-born cannot be elected president of the United States. If your parent(s) are American then you should be okay however.I’ll just swim the Atlantic then, find a U.S powerpoint adaptor and using my beard trimmers will shave my head, paint an avatar on it, falsify my passport with some felt tip pens, change my age on it (if people ask questions then I can always show them a bank statement - Tipp-Ex’d), perfect my U.S accent (I can also do various others, for fun), gain entry in the U.S army, work my way up quickly to senior military level, gain access to official military files, find out who orchestrated the whole Yoga thing and suggest to him or her that they run for President!, grow my hair back, become outspoken in the world of politics, berate politicians for their lack of motivation towards making social reforms, pay backhanders to celebrities, become president, sack the Yoga trainers, boot out the practioners, unhypnotise the soldiers, send troops to finish off ISIS, make abortion and euthanasia (if it isn’t already) illegal, shave my hair and scrub off the avatar that I forgot to remove, grow my hair back, get a cat, and a wife, shave the cat, question my sanity, grow the cat’s fur back, resign, work in Manhattan, feel estranged in a concrete oblivion only to be next seen ambling along in the dimly-lit streets of underground chicago (after moving from Manhattan), join a Religious Order, got to Nepal, help out, defect and become a Hindu, change my mind, go to Ireland, become a nunk (a monk-nun), find this too confusing, become a friar and live life trying not to think about what just happened…
…before remembering I am still married…
I did all that last year, in this weird dream I had! I couldn’t work out where the tin foil came in, though!
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friardchips
Guest
Thank you. I can assure you that this plan is put forward with complete confidence in Tip-ex, and felt tips (anticipating inspection). The hair too, would be grown back, covering said-avatar, in a certain style, in order to distract from more detailed issues, maybe a hair-mould from the cast of ‘All The President’s Men’?! This is not finalised yet.
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GKC
Guest
Of course. Which is true for any such thing the military does. That it meets the stated need or requirement, at a level that justifies the resource expenditure to achieve it. If not, the Next Big Thing is needed, and must be found.
No. It’s what next appears on the horizon, to distract everyone with its shininess.
That aside, it is patently obvious that your curiosity on the subject vastly exceeds your knowledge of the military milieu in which such things rise and fall. I, OTOH, possess vastly more knowledge and experience of that milieu, and the things that rise and fall in it, as opposed to the level of interest I have in your curiosity.
Be advised.
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GKC
Guest
He assured me that he was only jesting, with that plan.
It is possible that he spoke honestly.
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friardchips
Guest
So, that being, what is termed as ‘effective’ Yoga, for the military to deem it useful for military training for those not ill?
Now who is making assumptions?
That said, could a shiny distraction be: Yoga intended mainly for ill soldiers?
I never pretended otherwise. It is not difficult to question a machine-type process in its integrity, if it is as regimented as you state it is, concerning itself only with ‘target performance’.
Your experience comes in handy, in knowing how these procedures come about, the sort of performance targets that allow for some ‘fad’ or other to stay or expire, and, what might a performance target be for military Yoga - either very specific, or, if your experience allows for making such across-the-board operational target-performance assessments, intelligent guesses - but if not, then this thread is still on hold.
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friardchips
Guest
Anything is possible. Although an ‘All The President’s Men’ hair-mould might be tricky to find, or indeed, accomplish. There may be one in Manhattan. This would then be a prelude to finding oneself there, later on.
The other option would be ‘Operation Lego Man’.
This is phase of the mission yet undisclosed, but because of your dedication to the thread, I will reveal that there are many Lego figures with a similar style hair shape to which I require fashioning of the said hair-mould.
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GKC
Guest
Some might consider it on hold. Some might consider it finished,
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friardchips
Guest
Let’s say Yoga was very possibly adapted for military “needs”.
New idea for Yoga:
Patient complains. Sees military psychologist. Then goes to Yoga practioner. Soldier goes back to troops feeling a bit better. Soldier revisits medic, who says: “Socks up soldier, how you doin’?” And there we have the beginnings of said-fad.
Yoga being used for medicinal purposes proves that Yoga in the military was and possibly still is encompassing the ‘spiritual’ aspects; hence, why the military have been using Sikhs to train them - quite long distances to go for just exercise!
To reiterate: the military have sikhs training their soldiers - unnecessary, if training is only simple exercise.
Research points to the fact that Yoga is a sum of its parts. There is no easy separation for Yoga from its philosophical and ‘spiritual’ origins.
From data provided by a poster who was in the military - new ideas have a regimented shelf-life based on performance targets.
So, soldiers feel a bit better from having done Yoga, and Yoga is kept as medicinal therapy in the U.S army…
Absolutely begging the question: when, how and why soldiers who were not ill, began training with the use of Yoga…?
What caused the army - what success in what practices - to deem it okay in reports for the use of Yoga to continue for routine army training for those who are not ill?
Was the practice / practices of Yoga challenged, and if so, what were the performance targets that allowed Yoga, despite being questioned, to carry over into routine army training for those whe are not ill?
What ‘strain’ of Yoga was kept and what strains were left to be used in the training of fit soldiers?
Who decided it was possible to split Yoga into strands?
When did the military bring in Sikhs, and why? Was this before or after performance targets were drawn up for the use of Yoga in the military?
**None of this can point to effective use of Yoga in military ops. **Especially if there is no action to be assessed.
Let me repeat this:
**None of this can point to effective use of Yoga in military ops. **Especially if there is no action to be assessed.
Only proof is in effective enhancment (or not) of troop’s performance in training.
New idea for Yoga:
Patient complains. Sees military psychologist. Then goes to Yoga practioner. Soldier goes back to troops feeling a bit better. Soldier revisits medic, who says: “Socks up soldier, how you doin’?” And there we have the beginnings of said-fad.
- Assessed outcomes during Yoga.
- Success or failure in reaching target objective.
- Fine for illnesses. Soldiers apparently believed they were improving.
Yoga being used for medicinal purposes proves that Yoga in the military was and possibly still is encompassing the ‘spiritual’ aspects; hence, why the military have been using Sikhs to train them - quite long distances to go for just exercise!
To reiterate: the military have sikhs training their soldiers - unnecessary, if training is only simple exercise.
Research points to the fact that Yoga is a sum of its parts. There is no easy separation for Yoga from its philosophical and ‘spiritual’ origins.
From data provided by a poster who was in the military - new ideas have a regimented shelf-life based on performance targets.
So, soldiers feel a bit better from having done Yoga, and Yoga is kept as medicinal therapy in the U.S army…
Absolutely begging the question: when, how and why soldiers who were not ill, began training with the use of Yoga…?
What caused the army - what success in what practices - to deem it okay in reports for the use of Yoga to continue for routine army training for those who are not ill?
Was the practice / practices of Yoga challenged, and if so, what were the performance targets that allowed Yoga, despite being questioned, to carry over into routine army training for those whe are not ill?
What ‘strain’ of Yoga was kept and what strains were left to be used in the training of fit soldiers?
Who decided it was possible to split Yoga into strands?
When did the military bring in Sikhs, and why? Was this before or after performance targets were drawn up for the use of Yoga in the military?
**None of this can point to effective use of Yoga in military ops. **Especially if there is no action to be assessed.
Let me repeat this:
**None of this can point to effective use of Yoga in military ops. **Especially if there is no action to be assessed.
Only proof is in effective enhancment (or not) of troop’s performance in training.
F
friardchips
Guest
Last night, a poster mentioned a film, that I had previously been thinking about in connection with this thread:
‘Men Who Stare At Goats’.
When I asked when it was made, they said 2009. I had been wondering whether the idea might have come about from popular culture - the above paragraph indicates this eventuality as being one possiblity - the Yoga article was published in 2003! It is often that films make (or appear to make) social commentaries (as if they have some inside info).
That said, apparently the book was written before, but in 2004 - after the report on Yoga in the military!
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friardchips
Guest
Nothing, can be a sign, like an assertion, leading to somewhere or a sign you use to vere away from.
But nothing can also be more than an “assertion”, it can be something definite.
IMO, nothing can go either way or remain still - it can contain a version of happiness or real joy and peace.
Working out which nothing one pertains to could be said to reveal the true depths of happiness. Depending on how one treats nothing. As long as we don’t simply relegate all nothings to the gutter.
Another point concerning why theories are not the ‘nothing in the gutter’ until proven more than jsut theory, is this:
If I have a theory about something, and it is something good, then yes, I hope it manifests into something real, but if I have a theory about something not so good, I hope it does not. So if theories are only nonsense until proven otherwise, then yes, it is still only theory, but may be a true theory I would rather wish did not manifest. It would be selfish of me to wish a theory of bad tidings to come true merely for my self to be proved right. So in this line of thinking, a theory might be a concern, a concern that if is correct, would be better if it were not true. In this case…the consequences.
This takes us back to nothing. And what we do with it. How do we treat nothing. Surely, we treat nothing like we treat everything else.
…maybe then, the good theories manifest and the not-so-good theories end up as gutter-nothings only.
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GKC
Guest
What the book, with which I am familiar (as also the program that it describes, and other generally related programs in the military) reflects is another illustration of how the next Widgets for Midgets comes into being. It wasn’t popular culture.Last night, a poster mentioned a film, that I had previously been thinking about in connection with this thread:
‘Men Who Stare At Goats’.
When I asked when it was made, they said 2009. I had been wondering whether the idea might have come about from popular culture - the above paragraph indicates this eventuality as being one possiblity - the Yoga article was published in 2003! It is often that films make (or appear to make) social commentaries (as if they have some inside info).
That said, apparently the book was written before, but in 2004 - after the report on Yoga in the military!
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