Military's gay ban is unconstitutional

[Via_Dolorosa]

You haven’t actually been exposed to the gay lifestyle have you? If it were possible to show some examples without violating the rules or exposing anyone to a near occasion of sin, then I could really open a lot of people’s eyes. It’s just not possible to actually show what is going on in the gay lifestyle without actually showing it.

Are you saying that homosexuals have no self control?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

There are arguments against having gays in the military that aren’t as frivolous as you make them out to be. If showering with people who have attraction to your sex isn’t a big deal, then why don’t I get to shower with the females out in the field? If being roomates with people who have an attraction to my sex isn’t a big deal, then why aren’t male Soldiers rooming with female Soldiers?

Under DADT, we already have gays showering with straights. Has that been a major problem anywhere?

In order to be consistent, we’ll either have to:
a) have males and females rooming/showering together

That’s ridiculous. No one has suggested that.

b) create separate living facilities for lesbians and gays so that they have their own personal rooms and showers, since you can’t have lesbians sharing arrangements, nor can you have a lesbian sharing an arrangement with a straight female, nor can you have a lesbian sharing an arrangement with a straight male.

Under DADT, gays and lesbians are already serving, and living with straights. As for lesbians and straight men, that’s something no one has suggested.

If you’re so worried about that, though, check with the Canadians and Brits and Aussies and Danes and the Dutch and the Italians and the Israelis to see how they handle open gays in their military services.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

The argument is coming from people who have never served. Let’s hear from the people who did… they seem ok with the idea.

 

[Sonic]

Are you saying that homosexuals have no self control?

From my personal experience, no they don’t, and that’s part of the problem with those who struggle with it. It’s a lifestyle centered solely on sexual identity and sexual preference.

That’s my opinion based on experience. It’s hard to back it up without the hard facts I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[NotCrazyDan]

The argument is coming from people who have never served. Let’s hear from the people who did… they seem ok with the idea.

That’s funny, since I have 13 years in service, have deployed to Iraq and have spent 2 years in Korea.

 

[NotCrazyDan]

Are you saying that homosexuals have no self control?

No. I’d argue they have roughly the same amount of self-control as a straight man. So I ask again, why aren’t I showering with the females in the field or rooming with females in garrison if it’s no big deal?

 

[Sonic]

Under DADT, we already have gays showering with straights. Has that been a major problem anywhere?

Let’s look at this from another perspective.

From an ethical perspective, is it right to expose someone to a near occasion of sin by allowing them to shower with people they are attracted to?

I knew a guy, in a support group, who was really struggling. He told me that using the male shower facilities at the public pool presented a real obstacle to him being chaste. He was the lifeguard for the pool. The aftermath of this exposure always occurred after using the shower facilities and not in the shower facilities itself.

We often look at this from the perspective of how a heterosexual will feel or might be victimized. No one ever looks at it from the other side of the coin. It’s the same reason why we don’t allow men to shower with women. It makes for a very uncomfortable situation for those who wish to utilize their self control.

 

[NotCrazyDan]

Under DADT, we already have gays showering with straights. Has that been a major problem anywhere?

Do you even bother looking at the other side before posting stuff like this? Roughly 7% of all assaults in the military are male on male, which comes out to about 206 incidents per year, depending on the year. This is especially alarming considering the military has a lower percentage of gay and lesbians than the general population.

Under DADT, gays and lesbians are already serving, and living with straights. As for lesbians and straight men, that’s something no one has suggested.

If you re-read my post you’ll see the words 'In order to be consistent. There is no logical difference between having men and women rooming together or lesbians and lesbians rooming together. So i ask again, why can’t male Soldiers and female Soldiers room together? Won’t they be able to control themselves??

If you’re so worried about that, though, check with the Canadians and Brits and Aussies and Danes and the Dutch and the Italians and the Israelis to see how they handle open gays in their military services.

I don’t know their culture or their systems for doing things. I know ours, and I know we’re better than them.

 

[Chaplain777]

The argument is coming from people who have never served. Let’s hear from the people who did… they seem ok with the idea.

I was only in for four years, and it seems that I was working my backside off from day one. I really didn’t think about it, as long as the guy on either side of me was doing his job is all that counted. I do not support this lifestyle, and can become rather agitated when I hear the gay activists spout off on the tube. But, if anybody in my unit was gay, I never knew it.

The argument is coming from people who have never served. Let’s hear from the people who did… they seem ok with the idea.

That’s funny, since I have 13 years in service, have deployed to Iraq and have spent 2 years in Korea.

Care to elaborate?

 

[NotCrazyDan]

Chaplain not sure what you want me to elaborate on. My 2 years in Korea were 1/15th FA in Camp Casey, my deployment in Iraq was during OIF III as part of 3rd ID, 3/7 Infantry out of Fort Stewart.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Do you even bother looking at the other side before posting stuff like this? Roughly 7% of all assaults in the military are male on male, which comes out to about 206 incidents per year, depending on the year. This is especially alarming considering the military has a lower percentage of gay and lesbians than the general population.

206 assaults? And how many men in our Armed Forces?

If you re-read my post you’ll see the words 'In order to be consistent. There is no logical difference between having men and women rooming together or lesbians and lesbians rooming together. So i ask again, why can’t male Soldiers and female Soldiers room together? Won’t they be able to control themselves??

This has nothing to do with what you think is logical. The question hasn’t been brought up on an official level. We already have straights and gays/lesbians living together.

I don’t know their culture or their systems for doing things. I know ours, and I know we’re better than them.

How? Do you not think the Canadian and British and other armies are equally professional? As to their cultures, I’d not be so quick as to say that ours is better until I’ve studied theirs and also their systems for doing things.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I was only in for four years, and it seems that I was working my backside off from day one. I really didn’t think about it, as long as the guy on either side of me was doing his job is all that counted.

My experience as well and Stan Kolbe’s, too. If the guy was gay and he did his job, I had no beef with him.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

There are arguments against having gays in the military that aren’t as frivolous as you make them out to be. If showering with people who have attraction to your sex isn’t a big deal, then why don’t I get to shower with the females out in the field? If being roomates with people who have an attraction to my sex isn’t a big deal, then why aren’t male Soldiers rooming with female Soldiers?

In order to be consistent, we’ll either have to:
a) have males and females rooming/showering together

b) create separate living facilities for lesbians and gays so that they have their own personal rooms and showers, since you can’t have lesbians sharing arrangements, nor can you have a lesbian sharing an arrangement with a straight female, nor can you have a lesbian sharing an arrangement with a straight male.

I’ve have a room in the same barracks with female soldiers the entire second floor was for females at the time because of barracks space a few of us NCO’s had to live on the second floor; we even had to have a co-ed latrine not a problem, I’m mean I’m shaving in the morning and a female would walk in the latrine go into a stall and do her business. I have slept in the same tents in the field with female soldiers.

I have slept in the same room [temporary] with female soldiers. The barracks have been co-ed since the seventies.

I have fought beside female soldiers and I have never lusted after them. Is there ever going to be some soldiers lusting after each other—yes human nature.

Just like female soldiers will not put up with sexual harassment [trust me you can get your lights punched out] homosexual soldiers no better than to sexually harass another soldier be it heterosexual or homosexual; other soldiers will not put up with it.

As I said before on these boards if I’m in a shower and some guy is looking way too much at my woo-woo well I’m going to confront the person, “What the hell are you looking at”?

Come on we are the United States Armed Forces we are not about peace and love we’re trained to kill the enemy—I’m not saying I would kill the guy but I would probably punch his lights out.

There are regulations in place and have been in place for years.

Since I’ve been in the civilian workplace I have seen more sexual misconduct that would never be tolerated in the military. I just know in the military it would not be a big deal if homosexuals serve openly.

 

[Sonic]

Do you even bother looking at the other side before posting stuff like this? Roughly 7% of all assaults in the military are male on male, which comes out to about 206 incidents per year, depending on the year. This is especially alarming considering the military has a lower percentage of gay and lesbians than the general population.

Considering that the homosexual population consists of less than 2 percent of the general population, the percentage you mentioned is quite high.

 

[NotCrazyDan]

206 assaults? And how many men in our Armed Forces?

The question isn’t ‘out of how many men’ but 'out of how many gay men in our armed forces’

This has nothing to do with what you think is logical. The question hasn’t been brought up on an official level. We already have straights and gays/lesbians living together.

It hasn’t been brought up officially? So what? Yes we have straights, gays, and lesbians living and working together, and for the most part that’s ok, because it’s nobody’s business! Having them serve openly, throwing out their personal life at work and bringing their lovers to unit functions will make it everyone’s business. And yes, that will absolutely impact unit cohesion.

How? Do you not think the Canadian and British and other armies are equally professional? As to their cultures, I’d not be so quick as to say that ours is better until I’ve studied theirs and also their systems for doing things.

Yes we’re better than them, because they put civilian-driven politically correct BS like this ahead of the lives of their Soldiers and winning wars.

 

[NotCrazyDan]

I’ve have a room in the same barracks with female soldiers the entire second floor was for females at the time because of barracks space a few of us NCO’s had to live on the second floor; we even had to have a co-ed latrine not a problem, I’m mean I’m shaving in the morning and a female would walk in the latrine go into a stall and do her business. I have slept in the same tents in the field with female soldiers.

I have slept in the same room [temporary] with female soldiers. The barracks have been co-ed since the seventies.

I have fought beside female soldiers and I have never lusted after them. Is there ever going to be some soldiers lusting after each other—yes human nature.

Just like female soldiers will not put up with sexual harassment [trust me you can get your lights punched out] homosexual soldiers no better than to sexually harass another soldier be it heterosexual or homosexual; other soldiers will not put up with it.

As I said before on these boards if I’m in a shower and some guy is looking way too much at my who-who well I’m going to confront the person, “What the hell are you looking at”?

Come on we are the United States Armed Forces we are not about peace and love we’re trained to kill the enemy—I’m not saying I would kill the guy but I would probably punch his lights out.

There are regulations in place and have been in place for years.

Since I’ve been in the civilian workplace I have seen more sexual misconduct that would never be tolerated in the military. I just know in the military it would not be a big deal if homosexuals serve openly.

Well brother I respect your opinion. I guess we had to disagree on something

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

well brother i respect your opinion. I guess we had to disagree on something

HOOAH!

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

It hasn’t been brought up officially? So what? Yes we have straights, gays, and lesbians living and working together, and for the most part that’s ok, because it’s nobody’s business! Having them serve openly, throwing out their personal life at work and bringing their lovers to unit functions will make it everyone’s business.

Don’t know what kind of a unit yours was, but in mine, we didn’t throw out our personal lives at work, and no one cared whom you brought to a unit function.

And yes, that will absolutely impact unit cohesion.

You don’t know that.

Yes we’re better than them, because they put civilian-driven politically correct BS like this ahead of the lives of their Soldiers and winning wars.

Sorry, but you said, “I don’t know their culture or their systems for doing things,” which shows that you haven’t a clue in what areas they are ahead of or behind us. As for winning wars, the Brits have done a good job in Afghanistan. That isn’t PC, that’s professionalism be the troops straight or gay.

 

[Sonic]

Having seen the good work done by apostolates like Courage, the best thing for men struggling with homosexuality is to interact with faithful heterosexual men.

couragerc.net/

In this sense, serving in the military with other heterosexual men would be beneficial. Knowing that there are many people who struggle with sexual identity before deciding whether they are homosexual or not, I also know that many people eventually figure out they are not homosexual. There should be no penalty for men or women who think they might have a homosexual preference and are trying to sort these things out. Our church teaches us that those struggling with homosexuality should be treated with great care… especially since we do not altogether know why it happens in some people. In this way, serving openly is beneficial in that it allows others know about the person’s personal struggle, and those who wish to help them live celibate lives can do so.

On the other hand, allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the homosexual lifestyle would probably be detrimental in that it would allow homosexuals to further immerse themselves in the lifestyle. According to Courage, one of the hindrances to leaving the homosexual lifestyle is being involved with it through contact with others involved with it and frequenting areas and events associated with it. In this way, serving openly in the military is not a good thing.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

That’s funny, since I have 13 years in service, have deployed to Iraq and have spent 2 years in Korea.

what are your thoughts on the issue?