Ministry with Lesbian and Gay Catholics

[JimO]

Why are so many people here (seemingly) judging those who are gay and Catholic when each of us is also a sinner in so many other ways?

That’s not the point. The point is that some people don’t want to acknowledge that it is sin. What if I said, “I’m Catholic, but I think that it’s okay to have sex with any one I want, married or not. I don’t believe it’s a sin.”? Or, “I’m Catholic, but I don’t believe that Jesus rose from the dead and I am teaching that to children in my 3rd grade class.” Or, “I’m Catholic, but I believe it’s okay to steal as long as I am giving most of it to the poor.”

It’s not “one sinner judging another.” It’s pointing out that a given action is sin. It’s a sinner saying to someone who doesn’t believe they are in sin, “that’s sin and by engaging in it you are jeopardizing your eternal soul.”

I would have no argument with a gay person who said, “I’m gay and struggling because I know that engaging is sexual acts is sinful.” We are all struggling with sinful acts. What I have a problem with is people denying that it is sin simply because they don’t want to believe it’s sin.

A person can be “gay and Catholic”, but they cannot engage in sexual acts any more than unmarried heterosexuals can without committing grave sin. That is not judging a person, it’s stating a teaching of the Church.

 

[TheGoodLife]

ok, I think a previous post had it right when they said that instead of thinking in terms of labels, we should think about people as individuals.

this above post hurt me so much I can’t tell you. This is something I will have to struggle with all my life… but what hurt me was that a rapist takes from someone who is not willing, as does a paedophile. even though I have done things that are wrong, I would never violently take away someone’s dignity in this manner and the fact that a logicalk jump was made from homosexuality to rape and paedophili made me feel sick.

I have made mistakes… and I don’t mind if anyone wants to understand this issue as it relates to an individual but I’m not putting myself up for judgement from any of you.

SSA I believe can never be altered. It is something I cannot change. The question now is: how do I live my life. I started reading this thread…and some of the words that hit me were: VILE, DISGUST…

How can I now engage with this when words of hatred are used so thoughtlessly? I try to live at the moment without having sex, but my attraction will always be there…

I place these sins alongside adultery, masturbation, lust etc etc…but words such as vile and disgust would not be used in judgement against these sins because they are more widespread sins which heterosexuals can relate to.

I think some people here would benefit from trying to relate to something outside of their own experiences and realise that even though we all sin; how many of us at a young age are offered such an ultimatum:

chastity or sin, and nothing in between… how many of you would have accepted this easily. I think homosexual people need more help than most as they have to be alone.

sorry i talked for so long , I was just a bit upset.

S x

Very well put! God bless and lots of love.

 

[Lynn-D]

Heterosexuals are expected to remain chaste until marriage, the purpose of sexual relations is procreation.
Why are so many people here (seemingly) judging those who are gay and Catholic when each of us is also a sinner in so many other ways?

Ok, I am doomed. I cannot bear children so according to some I cannot remarry. My husband just died so am I to never consider remarrying?

Marriage for procreation is not the rule or anyone who marries past menapause would be a sinner. Is that it?

Chaste until marriage…OK? Being able to procreate…not OK!

Lynn-D

Mathew 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[melensdad]

] . . .The point is that some people don’t want to acknowledge that it is sin. What if I said, “I’m Catholic, but I think that it’s okay to have sex with any one I want, married or not. I don’t believe it’s a sin.”?

I clearly understand this point and while I understand that some people are misguided in this belief, I also see people using terms like VILE and DISGUSTED on page 1, then page 2, post 22 tacitly links gays with pedofiles/rapists. Then I see bickering about whether gays make up 10% of the population or something closer to 5%, as if that mattered at all? Then I see challenges to be perfect, which is good, but they are done in an accusatory way as if only people who harbor feelings of SSA are not perfect. Then kleptomania and being a psycopath enter the absurdity of this discussion.

So I’m sorry, but what I see are some folks who are being put down, and being put down in a very mean way. They are gay, many are trying to deal with it inside the church, some perhaps not. But we are not here to judge them, rather we should support them in their quest toward Christ. If your wife/husband strays outside the marriage is she/he not just as sinful? If your child has premarital sex is he/she not just as sinful? If you were not chaste or if you strayed willingly away from the church and now have returned did you not also commit a grave sin? Sure, its a different one, but its still grave.

I suggest this to all folks here, please be more tolerant of those among us who are trying to share our faith, even if they are somewhat misguided. I know I’m not perfect. I’m a married dad, 46 years old on my 22nd faithful year of marriage but have not always been the best husband or father or for that matter I have not even always been a great Catholic during those 46 years.

Most people think I’m a blunt jerk and I am willing to accept that. I have strong feelings and beliefs and one of those is that much of this thread, and many who post in it are showing some very mean spirited beliefs. Sure people who have SSA are carrying a burden that perhaps many of us do not carry, but it is also a burden we probably would stumble under if we had to deal with it.

Lighten up and show a more Christian attitude.



Lynn-D, specifically to you, I’m sure the Catechism of the Church deals with your issue, I don’t know what the specifics of it are but I would think *(clearly I don’t know) *my statement, within the rules of the Catechism, which was a generality probably would not apply to you?

 

[Dorothy]

Ok, I am doomed. I cannot bear children so according to some I cannot remarry. My husband just died so am I to never consider remarrying?

Marriage for procreation is not the rule or anyone who marries past menapause would be a sinner. Is that it?

Chaste until marriage…OK? Being able to procreate…not OK!

Lynn-D

Mathew 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

What you have been told by others, stated above, is not true. People who are past menopause have the right to marry.

 

[LilyM]

Ok, I am doomed. I cannot bear children so according to some I cannot remarry. My husband just died so am I to never consider remarrying?

Marriage for procreation is not the rule or anyone who marries past menapause would be a sinner. Is that it?

Chaste until marriage…OK? Being able to procreate…not OK!

Lynn-D

Mathew 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Very simply, as Christ put it marriage was designed to be between a man and a woman. That’s why polygamy is out, that’s also (one) of the reasons why homosexuality, adultery or masturbation is out.

As for procreation - well, what’s expected is that you not be deliberately and unnaturally frustrating your procreative abilities. Remember Sarah and Elizabeth - not to mention the mothers of Samuel and Samson among others - all made fruitful after years of barrenness. Sarah being NINETY and Elizabeth probably past the age of menopause too. So being past menopause is OK, artificial contraception or sterilisation aren’t.

So neither the unitive nor procreative functions of sex are fulfilled within a homosexual relationship. Just as they’re not with adultery or masturbation.

 

[Dale_M]

Lynn-D, specifically to you, I’m sure the Catechism of the Church deals with your issue

Of course it does! Sexuality in marriage is more than about procreation.

2361
"Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143

2362
"The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145

Of course, sexuality is not to be artificially separated from fecundity. It needs to be open to life. But…

2379
The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm

If, due to nature, children do not come to a marriage it does not mean the marriage is invalid. It simply means the couple should promote life through other actions.

 

[JimO]

So I’m sorry, but what I see are some folks who are being put down, and being put down in a very mean way. They are gay, many are trying to deal with it inside the church, some perhaps not. But we are not here to judge them, rather we should support them in their quest toward Christ. If your wife/husband strays outside the marriage is she/he not just as sinful? If your child has premarital sex is he/she not just as sinful? If you were not chaste or if you strayed willingly away from the church and now have returned did you not also commit a grave sin? Sure, its a different one, but its still grave.

I suggest this to all folks here, please be more tolerant of those among us who are trying to share our faith, even if they are somewhat misguided. I know I’m not perfect. I’m a married dad, 46 years old on my 22nd faithful year of marriage but have not always been the best husband or father or for that matter I have not even always been a great Catholic during those 46 years.

I appreciate your honesty and I agree with you. I didn’t read every one of the previous posts, but I’ve seen plenty of the behavior you describe. I agree that having homosexual relations is no more sinful than committing adultry, having any other kind of premarital sex, engaging in pornography, etc. And you are right, we are all sinners. What I continually run up against, however, particulary when it comes to homosexuality, is a refusal to call it sin. We absolutely need to show love and be compassionate, but often the most loving and compassionate thing is to tell the truth - and not in an accusatory manner, but with a true desire to draw that person to Christ.

 

[melensdad]

I appreciate your honesty and I agree with you . . . What I continually run up against, however, particulary when it comes to homosexuality, is a refusal to call it sin. . . .

Homosexuality, single sex attraction, SSA, or whatever you want to call it, is not in and of itself a grave sin. ACTING on it and committing homosexual acts are sins. There is a difference between dealing with the feelings and actually doing the deeds.

I’m a typical guy, I see an attractive woman, I am attracted but do not lust after her. I can work to control it and don’t have to act on it. A typical person with SSA can see an attractive person and be attracted to them but not lust after them and then not act on it. No harm no foul!

We all sin in so many ways, the last thing we need to do is be judgmental toward others who are trying to find their way toward Christ.

 

[JimO]

Homosexuality, single sex attraction, SSA, or whatever you want to call it, is not in and of itself a grave sin. ACTING on it and committing homosexual acts are sins. There is a difference between dealing with the feelings and actually doing the deeds.

I’m with you on that. Sexual acts outside of Sacramental marriage are sinful, whether homosexual or heterosexual. As long as people agree on this premise, we have no argument. But, there are those who want the Church to declare that homosexual relationships (meaning sexually active relationships) are licit. They do not believe it is sin and refuse to accept the Church’s stand on this. This is what I have a serious problem with.

Yes, we must help everyone draw closer to Christ. But, if someone refuses to accept the truth as it relates to what is sin and what is not (and I’m not talking about ignorance, but informed dissent), they are not in the state of sanctifying grace and cannot grow closer to Christ until they repent and confess the sin. Being vague about what is sin and what is not is not compassion and it’s not helping someone draw close to Christ.

I think we agree on this, but I wanted to be clear.

Blessings

 

[boppaid]

Fr. Benedict Groeschel once said in a homily at Holy Name in Providence: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GAY/LESBIAN MINISTRY! THAT IS AN OXYMORON WITH HIGH STRESS ON THE LAST TWO SYLLABLES OF THE WORD “OXYMORON”.

No offense to this man, but I think that statement is ridiculous. Of COURSE this is such thing as a gay/lesbian ministry. Jesus ministered to ALL sinners…raising eyebrows as He did so. What a shame many in the Church cannot do the same.

 

[goofyjim]

I clearly understand this point and while I understand that some people are misguided in this belief, I also see people using terms like VILE and DISGUSTED on page 1, then page 2, post 22 tacitly links gays with pedofiles/rapists. Then I see bickering about whether gays make up 10% of the population or something closer to 5%, as if that mattered at all? Then I see challenges to be perfect, which is good, but they are done in an accusatory way as if only people who harbor feelings of SSA are not perfect. Then kleptomania and being a psycopath enter the absurdity of this discussion.

So I’m sorry, but what I see are some folks who are being put down, and being put down in a very mean way. They are gay, many are trying to deal with it inside the church, some perhaps not. But we are not here to judge them, rather we should support them in their quest toward Christ. If your wife/husband strays outside the marriage is she/he not just as sinful? If your child has premarital sex is he/she not just as sinful? If you were not chaste or if you strayed willingly away from the church and now have returned did you not also commit a grave sin? Sure, its a different one, but its still grave.

I suggest this to all folks here, please be more tolerant of those among us who are trying to share our faith, even if they are somewhat misguided. I know I’m not perfect. I’m a married dad, 46 years old on my 22nd faithful year of marriage but have not always been the best husband or father or for that matter I have not even always been a great Catholic during those 46 years.

Most people think I’m a blunt jerk and I am willing to accept that. I have strong feelings and beliefs and one of those is that much of this thread, and many who post in it are showing some very mean spirited beliefs. Sure people who have SSA are carrying a burden that perhaps many of us do not carry, but it is also a burden we probably would stumble under if we had to deal with it.

Lighten up and show a more Christian attitude.



Lynn-D, specifically to you, I’m sure the Catechism of the Church deals with your issue, I don’t know what the specifics of it are but I would think *(clearly I don’t know) *my statement, within the rules of the Catechism, which was a generality probably would not apply to you?

Thank you for your kind words. I for one am someone who twenty one years ago said I was gay while still celibate. I regret that decision because it never gave me the chance to explore the alternative therapies out there. I had to accept the belief that one is born that way. Just last year I met a young gentleman who was in the same boat I was twenty years ago. I gave him the best advice I could. Don’t come out. He doesn’t want to maintain a friendship right now but I wish I had the chance to give him a copy of Theology of the Body Explained. He had said to me once that maybe he would be happier being Catholic. This is still my hope for him. I immediately enrolled him perpetually in the miraculous medal association and FOSS so he is benefitting from many masses every day.

 

[goofyjim]

No offense to this man, but I think that statement is ridiculous. Of COURSE this is such thing as a gay/lesbian ministry. Jesus ministered to ALL sinners…raising eyebrows as He did so. What a shame many in the Church cannot do the same.

In defense of Fr. Groeschel, he means there cannot be a ministry to those who insist their primary identity is gay or lesbian and actively so. Any ministry must call them to and confirm them in the teachings of the Church. It can be done folks. I know. After coming out prematurely twenty one years ago and talking it through I have continued to stay celibate my whole life. I tried Dignity and saw it as complete mockery of the faith. Then I helped found the local chapter of Courage. This is the only ministry right now that can be apporved the Church and more should be done to get that word out.

 

[blessedtoo]

Thanks, Jim, for clarfying regarding Fr. Groeschel. One of the tenets of Courage is to refrain from using the terms “gay and lesbian” to describe those with SSA because those labels indicate a committment to a lifestyle rather than a willingness to remain chaste. I tend to be alarmed when I see Parish ministries using these culturally correct labels. The USCCB also stated that Church ministries should avoid affiliation with any terms or activites which promote even the impression of acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[blessedtoo]

I clearly understand this point and while I understand that some people are misguided in this belief, I also see people using terms like VILE and DISGUSTED on page 1, then page 2, post 22 tacitly links gays with pedofiles/rapists. Then I see bickering about whether gays make up 10% of the population or something closer to 5%, as if that mattered at all? Then I see challenges to be perfect, which is good, but they are done in an accusatory way as if only people who harbor feelings of SSA are not perfect. Then kleptomania and being a psycopath enter the absurdity of this discussion.

Unfortunately, this thread has included some very un-Catholic theology, such as the notion that SSA individuals MUST change their orientations or else be doomed to eternal damnation. Posters who adhere to this idea are not promoting Catholic teaching. Indeed, some are non-practising Catholics who are perhaps very confused about the issue. However, I do think that it is unavoidable to encounter words like “disgusting” or “vile” when discussing this topic because I do believe that it is the natural tendency to find unnatural sexual activity repugnant. One need only ask an adolescent boy his impression of two men kissing to see that such a response is visceral. Of course our society has done a great job indoctrinating our youth to ignore their instinct on this issue so you might get a mixed response today. Suffice to say that back in my day, nearly all would agree that homosexual acts are an extremely unappealing proposition. Let me also add that those who are fully conformed with Church theology regarding human sexuality will also find revolting such acts as masturbation, fornication, pornography, etc.

So I’m sorry, but what I see are some folks who are being put down, and being put down in a very mean way. They are gay, many are trying to deal with it inside the church, some perhaps not. But we are not here to judge them, rather we should support them in their quest toward Christ.

The responses were to this post:

Let me say that i’m a lesbian catholic, my partner and i do attend mass. We raised our children catholic. Our values are the same as any other catholic, just because we sleep together doesn’t mean anything bad. We have to answer to the lord when passing.
We are not to judge others.

In the context of this assertion by this member, it would be a terrible misstep for any Catholic to allow such a misunderstanding to slide without correction. I have to be able to square my loyalty to Christ with Him every day and it would be hard to explain why I didn’t inform someone that their participation in sin may not be in their best spiritual interest. And please note that the poster came onto a Catholic Forum, asserting her right to engage in behavior clearly condemned by the Church she claims to be part of. We didn’t seek her out.

If your wife/husband strays outside the marriage is she/he not just as sinful? If your child has premarital sex is he/she not just as sinful? If you were not chaste or if you strayed willingly away from the church and now have returned did you not also commit a grave sin? Sure, its a different one, but its still grave.

Yup. And when people come to the forums promoting their right to be Catholic and persist in unrepentent sin, they should also be confronted with the truth.

 

[melensdad]

blessedtoo . . . you took some of my words and attributed meaning to them that I did not intend or imply. It was a mistake on your part to link the implication that I condone lesbian unions within the context of the Church. I do not.

That said, I do welcome gays and lesbians into the church within the teachings of the church, and those that fall and try to stand again, will have my support as members who while sinners, are no greater sinners than the rest of us.

 

[blessedtoo]

you took some of my words and attributed meaning to them that I did not intend or imply. It was a mistake on your part to link the implication that I condone lesbian unions within the context of the Church. I do not.

I did? I’m pretty sure I spoke only about myself, previous comments, and a post made in reference to active homosexual behavior. I didn’t even mention you.

You asserted that some posters displayed un-Christian behavior. I was simply responding to your comment.

 

[blacktiger057]

Really people! I think it’s great that they have formed a ministry for these people. It’s sorta sad that they had to form their own group instead of being part of a egular one, though. Some homosexuals are undoubedly perverts, but they are still people. Some are really nice.

I’m straight, but it must be tough for homosexuals. Why do you love someone? You just do. It’s probably the same for homo’s. They are attracted to someone and just can’t help themselves, even if they don’t want to feel the way they do.

I was really sickened by the first and second poster’s comments on this. Are you saying that homos should not be part of the Christian community? It seems rather close minded to me.

 

[elts1956]

So should Catholic parishes sponsor Alcoholics Anonymous groups, in which members identify themselves as alcoholics?

Anonymous, anonynous is the working word here. I could accept a Gays and Lesbians Anonymous group. How about you?

 

[elts1956]

So should Catholic parishes sponsor Alcoholics Anonymous groups, in which members identify themselves as alcoholics?

I noticed that the Archdiocese of LA has a SPecial ministry that is directed towards gays and lesbians.

What a wonderful thing!!!

I am curious though? When are they going to start their ministry for Pedophiles and Rapists?

Are those people not as important as gays?

Am I missing somthing here?

Why does one sinful lifestyle get more attention that other sinful lifestyles?

LIFE is just NOT FAIR!!! :crying: