Minnesota school shooting gunman kills 2 children, injures 17 others during Catholic mass


Prayers.
So sad extremely sad bless their heart and his, it really has me curious about what the Cathlolic faith is teachings? God sent messengers to the 7 churches about their inequities. If you are going to believe, then believe 200% and follow God in rightousness, not in what you think or what another man says, how many read their bible? and pray at home?
To all those stay strong and blessed,
Kathleen
 
So sad extremely sad bless their heart and his, it really has me curious about what the Cathlolic faith is teachings? God sent messengers to the 7 churches about their inequities. If you are going to believe, then believe 200% and follow God in rightousness, not in what you think or what another man says, how many read their bible? and pray at home?
To all those stay strong and blessed,
Kathleen

The basic teachings of the Catholic Church can be found in the most recent catechism, as well as those that preceded it (Catechism of St Pius X, Baltimore Catechism, and so on). There have been sinners from the time of Adam and Eve and there always will be. The teachings of the Catholic Church did not cause what happened today. People who take the Bible as their sole rule of faith sin also.

I do remind you that this is a Catholic forum, and as such upholds the teachings of the Church, rather than calling them into doubt. Respectful discussion is welcomed, and even those who disagree with those teachings will be treated fairly, but it is not a venue --- not suggesting that you are doing this --- to propose that there is something defective in the way that the Catholic Church carries out her mission, or more to the point, that the Church has some kind of intrinsic flaw that could be remedied by "getting back to the Bible" or some similar admonition. That's basically Lutheranism.
 
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So sad extremely sad bless their heart and his, it really has me curious about what the Cathlolic faith is teachings? God sent messengers to the 7 churches about their inequities. If you are going to believe, then believe 200% and follow God in rightousness, not in what you think or what another man says, how many read their bible? and pray at home?
To all those stay strong and blessed,
Kathleen
I do not understand your post. How do you come to see a possible connection between the teaching that respects life (and opposes the death penalty, for example) and the actions of one individual, who seems to have been disturbed?
What we know so far, is that Robin Westman may have felt marginalized in the school network where her mother worked for many years, and that may have fueled anger against the community. She posted videos on youtube that show some planning of the action, she barricaded the doors, so that people could not escape and she killed herself. I do not see God's will, nor teaching in any of this.
When tragedy strikes, we always ask ourselves why would God allow this, and we know we will never have answer, at least not in our life time.
It is also clear, that it is not for us to pass judgement- as you seem to be doing. Who knows who will be waiting for us in Heaven when we get there.
For me, the Book of Job is the answer- the infinite sovereignty of God, which we can neither question nor fully understand, but that we ultimately accept, in faith.
 
So sad extremely sad bless their heart and his, it really has me curious about what the Cathlolic faith is teachings? God sent messengers to the 7 churches about their inequities. If you are going to believe, then believe 200% and follow God in rightousness, not in what you think or what another man says, how many read their bible? and pray at home?
To all those stay strong and blessed,
Kathleen
Please study what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY is and ACTUALLY teaches. Please do not listen to rumors and untruths.
 
What we know so far, is that Robin Westman may have felt marginalized in the school network where her mother worked for many years, and that may have fueled anger against the community.

According to one online source, he “transitioned” several years ago — although it didn’t say at what age exactly — and had later come to regret it. That would suggest the possibility that nobody made much of an effort, at the time, to induce him to change his mind.
 
According to one online source, he “transitioned” several years ago — although it didn’t say at what age exactly — and had later come to regret it. That would suggest the possibility that nobody made much of an effort, at the time, to induce him to change his mind.
There is a large amount of writings and videos and it will take time to get a clearer picture, if ever we do. It seems a lot of the writing was simply hatred and ranting and self-hatred.
https://time.com/7312882/minneapoli...-catholic-church-school-shooting-transgender/
 
There is a large amount of writings and videos and it will take time to get a clearer picture, if ever we do. It seems a lot of the writing was simply hatred and ranting and self-hatred.
https://time.com/7312882/minneapoli...-catholic-church-school-shooting-transgender/
CNA has more about the notes he left. This has more extensive details than I had seen at the time of my earlier post today.
 
CNA has more about the notes he left. This has more extensive details than I had seen at the time of my earlier post today.
According to that article she said: "I regret being trans,” and added: “I wish I was a girl. I just know I cannot achieve that body with the technology we have today. I also can’t afford that.”
The regret is with the situation: not being born a girl and not being able to look as feminine as she wanted, not having money for it.
She also wrote that she was depressed and suicidal.
She did not leave one clear suicide note, but has has video with a manifest which is mostly hatred towards different groups of people and adds that she will only be sorry for her family.
Why the hatred for the children? There is material about shootings in schools, and evidence she planned it to be in a moment when many children were in church.

So, there are many different triggers, but not enough information to know exactly what motivated the shooting. Perhaps more will be discovered.
 
According to that article she said: "I regret being trans,” and added: “I wish I was a girl. I just know I cannot achieve that body with the technology we have today. I also can’t afford that.”
The regret is with the situation: not being born a girl and not being able to look as feminine as she wanted, not having money for it.
She also wrote that she was depressed and suicidal.
She did not leave one clear suicide note, but has has video with a manifest which is mostly hatred towards different groups of people and adds that she will only be sorry for her family.
Why the hatred for the children? There is material about shootings in schools, and evidence she planned it to be in a moment when many children were in church.

So, there are many different triggers, but not enough information to know exactly what motivated the shooting. Perhaps more will be discovered.
This individual is not 'she'
The proper pronoun to be using for a male is he.

Anything less is participating in a falsehood.
 
This individual is not 'she'
The proper pronoun to be using for a male is he.

Anything less is participating in a falsehood.
I understand that the issue is important to you, however it is not a reason to impose on me nor start a controversy with my writing.
I do not correct yours.
I am being respectful to the wish of a dead person (who is not present to argue about falsehood, nor defend her feelings)
As horrible as her last actions were, it is not for me to pass judgement. Now she stands before God. Now it is between her and God.
 
I am not going to take a position one way or the other on whether "he" or "she" pronouns should be used such cases. To my knowledge, the Church has not directly addressed the matter of which pronouns to use in these circumstances, and some languages do not have discrete masculine and feminine pronouns. The Church is responsible for teaching the whole world, not just parts of it. Moreover, it is not clear that the killer still identified as feminine, there was some evidence of having regretted the decision to go "trans".
 
I am not going to take a position one way or the other on whether "he" or "she" pronouns should be used such cases. To my knowledge, the Church has not directly addressed the matter of which pronouns to use in these circumstances, and some languages do not have discrete masculine and feminine pronouns. The Church is responsible for teaching the whole world, not just parts of it. Moreover, it is not clear that the killer still identified as feminine, there was some evidence of having regretted the decision to go "trans".
According to the article of Catholic News Agency, this is what she said: ""I regret being trans,” and added: “I wish I was a girl. I just know I cannot achieve that body with the technology we have today. I also can’t afford that.”
Westman also wrote: “I know I am not a woman but I definitely don’t feel like a man.”
Her wish was to be a woman, because she felt like a woman, although she acknowledge that her body was not.
The church teaches us to be compassionate, my compassion tells me that she suffered deeply, and at least, in dead, I will address her the way she wanted to be.
 
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According to the article of Catholic News Agency, this is what she said: ""I regret being trans,” and added: “I wish I was a girl. I just know I cannot achieve that body with the technology we have today. I also can’t afford that.”
Westman also wrote: “I know I am not a woman but I definitely don’t feel like a man.”
Her wish was to be a woman, because she felt like a woman, although she acknowledge that her body was not.
The church teaching us to be compassionate, my compassion tells me that she suffered deeply, and at least, in dead, I will address her the way she wanted to be.
Other news reports indicate that the killer had lately come to regret the decision to identify as female, at least exclusively, and spoke of self-brainwashing. That is what I was going by.
 
Other news reports indicate that the killer had lately come to regret the decision to identify as female, at least exclusively, and spoke of self-brainwashing. That is what I was going by.
This is exact quote, it comes from the Catholic news, and I read it in other sources: The Post’s translation states that Westman also wrote he wished “I never brainwashed myself,” but kept his long hair “because it is pretty much my last shred of being trans.”
It is about being trans, not about feeling like a woman and not being a man.
 
I am being respectful to the wish of a dead person (who is not present to argue about falsehood, nor defend her feelings)
Everything seen on the news about this individual indicates they were disturbed and confused.
Even if they were to have spoken their specific wishes out loud, it is unlikely that those wishes would, in fact, be in their best interest or even their actual will.

But you do bring up in an interesting point. Is it morally defensible to lie since it was the dying wish of an individual?

I do not believe so. As Catholics, we have an obligation to speak truthfully.

I am not going to take a position one way or the other on whether "he" or "she" pronouns should be used such cases. To my knowledge, the Church has not directly addressed the matter of which pronouns to use in these circumstances, and some languages do not have discrete masculine and feminine pronouns.
You are quite correct. The church has not made a specific teaching concerning pronoun usage.
There are far too many languages for the church to bother with something like that.
However, the church does have a specific teaching concerning the truth.

This individual was male. They may have tried to change that through various medical procedures, but that cannot change what is.
The proper pronouns to be used are masculine.
To refer to the individual with feminine verbiage is to contribute to a falsehood. A falsehood that says that we can change reality to suit a delusion.
This falsehood is, and was, incredibly damaging.
This falsehood, quite likely given the various writings the individual left behind, contributed to the entire tragedy.
 
Everything seen on the news about this individual indicates they were disturbed and confused.
Even if they were to have spoken their specific wishes out loud, it is unlikely that those wishes would, in fact, be in their best interest or even their actual will.

But you do bring up in an interesting point. Is it morally defensible to lie since it was the dying wish of an individual?

I do not believe so. As Catholics, we have an obligation to speak truthfully.


You are quite correct. The church has not made a specific teaching concerning pronoun usage.
There are far too many languages for the church to bother with something like that.
However, the church does have a specific teaching concerning the truth.

This individual was male. They may have tried to change that through various medical procedures, but that cannot change what is.
The proper pronouns to be used are masculine.
To refer to the individual with feminine verbiage is to contribute to a falsehood. A falsehood that says that we can change reality to suit a delusion.
This falsehood is, and was, incredibly damaging.
This falsehood, quite likely given the various writings the individual left behind, contributed to the entire tragedy.
In using the pronoun that according to the information we have so far matches Robin Westman's wishes, I treated her with dignity , following Dignitas Infinita (2024).
After years of considering homosexuals "disordered", the Catholic church accepted scientific evidence that homosexuality was not a choice, but determined at gestation. Thus, an homosexual orientation is no longer considered a sin (for example, pastoral letter "Always our Children" 1997).
There is consistent evidence from mature transgender people, that their sexual identity is durable, and constitutes an important part of their personalities. This fact, amongst others, has been a driver in the study of transgender issues, which is in its infancy. There is much to be learnt yet.

Being truthful means to search, read and honestly attempt to understand all relevant information.

Being a good Catholic means to not judge people, not to make assumptions about them. Blaming the tragedy on transgender issues is most probably incorrect. Transgender people do not commit more violent crimes than any other group, although they themselves are more frequent victims. Based on analysis of National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data from 2017 to 2020, transgender people in the U.S. face a disproportionately high risk of violent crime compared to cisgender individuals. High suicide rates in the transgender community are not a result of gender identity itself, but rather the compounding effects of stigma, discrimination, rejection, and lack of social and medical support. These factors fall under the minority stress model, which highlights how social marginalization creates significant mental health disparities.

Saying that Robin Westman's gender identity is a falsehood does not confer her the human dignity that is exhorted in the Declaration of 2024. None of us is in a position to know what her feelings were, how genuinely she felt about her gender. We do bad in classifying transgender people as disturbed, just as once the Catholic Church erroneously labeled homosexuals as "disordered". It is quite possible that the mismatch between her psychological identity and her biological exacerbated a depressive disorders, especially if she did not feel accepted by her peers, increasing her marginalization in school. It seems her mother and family were supportive- in the papers and videos left behind, the one people she felt sorry to harm by her decision was her family. Her mother signed the petition to change her name to Robin, in doing so, she acted in accordance to the guidance to support her adolescent child in "Always our children". That it was not enough to appease Robins sense of inadequacy, is not a failure of love, but a sign of how deep identity and sense of self matter, especially in sensitive people. The obsession with annihilation and school shootings point to other underlying mental health conditions. In that, she is probably closer to Nicholas Cruz, the Parkland shooter. On social media, both shared obsessions with mass shootings and expressed antisemitic and xenophobic views.

When we know as little as we do, the honest option is to try our best with compassion.

Compassion trumps doctrine every single time. Jesus showed that when debating in the temple, when accusing the established powers of hypocrisy. When he sat at the table with tax collectors (who were closer to Mafia enforcers at that time than to an IRS functionary)
Being truthful is not separated from being compassionate, they are one and the same, Jesus showed that.
I graduated as an economist. I studied economics because I wanted to find the best systems to help the poor. In 2005 the news were not encouraging, after years of research, the models were hopelessly incomplete. Then, came a revolution- a new approach, that now is recognized and taught in all economic programs, the authors won the Nobel Prize for it- the key? They combined compassion with statistics and in doing so, they found a way to the truth; in academic terms, they develop a methodology to establish causality. The only way to do this, to discover what truly works for human beings, was to think about them and their situations with compassion.
Academia followed compassion.
I think Doctrine will be updated constantly by compassion, and we will increasingly be better people.
 
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In using the pronoun that according to the information we have so far matches Robin Westman's wishes, I treated her with dignity , following Dignitas Infinita (2024).
No. You are making assumptions contrary to the reality of the situation.
The person was male. Disturbed, perhaps. But that does not entitle them to their own reality.
After years of considering homosexuals "disordered", the Catholic church accepted scientific evidence that homosexuality was not a choice, but determined at gestation. Thus, an homosexual orientation is no longer considered a sin (for example, pastoral letter "Always our Children" 1997).
Just plain incorrect.
The church has never considered the proclivity toward a particular a particular sin to be a sin.
Being truthful means to search, read and honestly attempt to understand all relevant information.
Truth also means speaking truth. Not using confusing language to support a delusion.
Being a good Catholic means to not judge people, not to make assumptions about them. Blaming the tragedy on transgender issues is most probably incorrect.
No one here has made such a judgment. But it would be unwise to pretend that the condition of this individual did not play a part in these events.
Saying that Robin Westman's gender identity is a falsehood does not confer her the human dignity that is exhorted in the Declaration of 2024.
Supporting a delusion is not charitable. It is, in fact, a lie.
None of us is in a position to know what her feelings were, how genuinely she felt about her gender.
Yet you consistently use confusing language to support the delusion that this individual was not male. And then claim to know what this individual wanted.

When we know as little as we do, the honest option is to try our best with compassion.
That means speaking truthfully.
There are ways to speak with compassion the truth. But supporting the delusion is not one of them.
I think Doctrine will be updated constantly by compassion, and we will increasingly be better people.
Doctrine does not change.
 
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