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EBC
Guest
There are news that Muslims are able to perform exorcism. It is claimed as a proof that their belief is irrefutable. So how should we take on this?
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
There are miracles in Christian Science, Mormonism, The Way, even the Children of God. The existence of miracles does not prove anything is true. The anti-christ is going to perform “lying wonders”. Matthew 7:22-23 speaks of people doing miracles who don’t know Christ. There were Jewish exorists ( acts 17? ) who casted out demons in Christ’s name, until they turned on them and kick butt.
Theories concernig miracles in false religions.
demons inflict pain ( book of Job ), the body will heal itself when they stop inflicting pain or injury.
there is a degree of natural healing, some say mind over matter, possitive mindset or what ever, these methods take time because the body is naturally healing.
God works miralces, but his true miracles only bear witness to what is known to be true by special revelation, called the Bible
Satan, and demons work miracles, Satan can appear as an angel of light. These bear witness to false gospels Gal 1:6-8.
Look back at Moses in Egypt. The wise men were able to dupicate some of the miracles that God performed through Moses. They either used natural science or demons supplied their power.
So, the bottom line, is what is being taught? Is it in line with apostolic tradition, the scriptures? or contray.
The New Testament reports that Jesus died and rose from the dead, and he is God. The quran denies that Jesus died, therefore in the quran he did not rise from the dead. And in the quran Jesus is not God. The Bible reports that God the Father has a Son, the quran denies this, in fact Allah may have daughters in what is known as the “satanic verses”. Therefore, the god of the koran is not the God of the Bible.
Theories concernig miracles in false religions.
demons inflict pain ( book of Job ), the body will heal itself when they stop inflicting pain or injury.
there is a degree of natural healing, some say mind over matter, possitive mindset or what ever, these methods take time because the body is naturally healing.
God works miralces, but his true miracles only bear witness to what is known to be true by special revelation, called the Bible
Satan, and demons work miracles, Satan can appear as an angel of light. These bear witness to false gospels Gal 1:6-8.
Look back at Moses in Egypt. The wise men were able to dupicate some of the miracles that God performed through Moses. They either used natural science or demons supplied their power.
So, the bottom line, is what is being taught? Is it in line with apostolic tradition, the scriptures? or contray.
The New Testament reports that Jesus died and rose from the dead, and he is God. The quran denies that Jesus died, therefore in the quran he did not rise from the dead. And in the quran Jesus is not God. The Bible reports that God the Father has a Son, the quran denies this, in fact Allah may have daughters in what is known as the “satanic verses”. Therefore, the god of the koran is not the God of the Bible.
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Rocky
Guest
Which verses are the “satanic” ones?
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mschrank
Guest
Wikipedia the Satanic Verses if you want to know.
I think this one can be answered pretty well. Human beings aren’t just matter, but are also spiritual. You know, when people say “I’m not religious, but I’m spiritual” they aren’t just talking postmodern rubbish, but they are on to something.
Look up Alester Crowley. This kind of spiritual power does exist out there, and isn’t necessarily Godly.
So the miraculous doesn’t prove the origin of any phenomenon.
I think this one can be answered pretty well. Human beings aren’t just matter, but are also spiritual. You know, when people say “I’m not religious, but I’m spiritual” they aren’t just talking postmodern rubbish, but they are on to something.
Look up Alester Crowley. This kind of spiritual power does exist out there, and isn’t necessarily Godly.
So the miraculous doesn’t prove the origin of any phenomenon.
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Eschato
Guest
Perhaps God loves everyone and is still willing to work miracles for them regardless of their faith. A lot of addicts ask God for help, and as soon as they quit, they turn their back on God. Basically what I am saying is that Muslims don’t perform exorcisms or miracles, God does. None of the saints performed miracles either, they just allowed God work through them.
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mschrank
Guest
That’s another good possibility.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Acts 19
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
Matthew 7:22-23 (New International Version)
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Mark 9
38"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
Basically, the name of Jesus is powerful. So, it is possible if one empolys his name, they could drive out demons. Back in the time of Jesus there were people, who were doing miracles in Jesus name that did not even belong to the group of the apostles.
Also, there is a possiblity that those in false religions are reporting miracles, exorcisms when there are not any. If there is a demon in a person, the demon could simply choose not to manifest itself thus giving the impression that it is gone. Other possiblities is the person only has psychological problems, and their exorcism, gave the person comfort because it is no longer his “fault”.
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
Matthew 7:22-23 (New International Version)
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Mark 9
38"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
Basically, the name of Jesus is powerful. So, it is possible if one empolys his name, they could drive out demons. Back in the time of Jesus there were people, who were doing miracles in Jesus name that did not even belong to the group of the apostles.
Also, there is a possiblity that those in false religions are reporting miracles, exorcisms when there are not any. If there is a demon in a person, the demon could simply choose not to manifest itself thus giving the impression that it is gone. Other possiblities is the person only has psychological problems, and their exorcism, gave the person comfort because it is no longer his “fault”.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
I can’t remember the man’s name. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the gift of healing died out with the apostles. God healed his child in order to lead him out of the watchtower into a personal relationship with Jesus.
I seriously doubt God would work a miracle to bear witness to a false gospel like Islam – otherwise the confrontation between Elijah and the prophets of Baal makes no sense.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Well, you have two different questions going on here if I understand your post correctly. Muslims can perform exorcisms. Demons hate anything of light or that is more powerful than they are. Jews can do it, Christians can do it, Muslims can do it. They all are religions “of the light”, while not all being equal in splendor and majesty.
Jesus Christ is the great exorcist himself. No other name in heaven and earth makes demons run away in fear and trembling than the name of Jesus.
So, while it is possible for Muslims to exorcize demons, they will certainly not be as successful as a Christian. I would also like to interject that Buddhists in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions can call upon Buddhas and can achieve some results, especially Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life.
In exorcism, we are putting the demons on oath, invoking a greater authority and power than they have themselves. While the Muslim Allah is understood differently than the Christian God whom I serve, I believe calling upon Allah (God in english) can be beneficial in binding evil spirits because in theory, Allah is greater than the demons and Satan.
Satan can’t cast out Satan. The Lord Jesus himself said so. So, if demons are cast out by invoking the names of Jesus, Allah or Yahweh, then you can theoretically say that those religious figures and their religions cannot be “Satanic”.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Peace…
MW
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Demons can quiet down to make it appear that they left or they can leave on their own accord for the purpose of giving credence to a false gospel.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Galatians 1:6-8 (King James Version)
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Revelation 2:2 (King James Version)
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
6But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
8I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
10As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Matthew 24:24 (King James Version)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Revelation 2:2 (King James Version)
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
6But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
8I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
10As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Matthew 24:24 (King James Version)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Yes, they can do so. They do it often. The host can even receive the Eucharist during demonic oppression, only to reappear. I think the purpose you have claimed is not accurate. They only hide so as to avoid detection and expulsion. I mean, given the choice of expulsion and being thrown into outer darkness, the logical choice is to hide so that they are not expelled to begin with.
When I followed Buddhism, I called upon Amitabha Buddha and demons hated it, but they would still remain. But, even as a Buddhist practitioner, when I could think of nothing else to do, I called upon Jesus. Only this name and his power forced them out. I then knew that it was illogical to follow any religion or person than the most powerful one, the Lord Jesus Christ.
You have to understand what the demons hate. They hate light, goodness, love, self-sacrifice, humility, peace and the list could go on and on. So, even a person following another faith can repel demons while not being able to expel them or exorcise them. It depends on the faith of the person and the deity they invoke. I see Allah as a misunderstanding by the Muslims of the true God, the Christian God. So, while they unknowingly call upon Allah and misunderstand God, I believe God honors their intentions.
I’ve never tried expelling demons by using Allah. Perhaps I will try and give you the results
, although it’s a bit unethical to use people for a religious experiement.Peace…
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
I think you misunderstand about my previous post.
The Lord Jesus was accused of casting out demons by Beelzebub, to which He responded, “A kingdom divided against itself will fall. Satan cannot cast out Satan.”
So, it’s not possible for a Satanic person or faith to cast out demons. A greater power puts the demons on oath and expels them. While I have no experience casting out demons using the name of Allah, I would venture to guess that demons would find themselves backed into a corner.
This isn’t an Islam versus Christianity thread on who is the greater faith and who is an apostate faith, in my opinion. I know my faith is greater and there is no salvation in any other than Jesus Christ.
Whether you accept it or not, this world is a world of contrasts of dark and light, good and evil and anything that is good is the direct opposer of all that is evil. You fight evil with goodness, light and love. If a Muslim is a “holy” person who walks in the light, follows the law of love, that spiritual power of love, which goes beyond a mere religion, repels evil.
Peace…
MW
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mschrank
Guest
You know some of the Early Church Fathers (not to mention Milton in Paradise Lost) believed that the devils who were cast out of hell were worshipped in some pagan rites as gods.
Melech “King” (or Moloch in the Hebrew parody on the word, using the vowels for “Holoth”- abomination) would most likely fit into this classification. Ba’al, who Elijah faced down, also means “Lord”. Most likely they are related gods… the whole ANE pantheon gets kind of complicated to say the least! They were very “tolerant” people.
This kind of infernal power would explain the power behind the confrontations between Moses vs. the Egyptian Priests and Elijah vs. the Priests of Baal.
Miracles in heresies such as Protestantism and Islam could theologically, I think, be put down to the fact that they have some truth in them and are not explicitly satanic as the ones mentioned above.
Another option to consider (in terms of miracles, not exorcisms) is some kind of native spiritual power that human beings may have and is neutral so-to-speak in terms of good and bad. For example, many paranormal phenomena like telepathy and remote viewing (the former exists irrefutably, see Sheldrake, the latter is more contestable). Could this be responsible for certain miracles?
Melech “King” (or Moloch in the Hebrew parody on the word, using the vowels for “Holoth”- abomination) would most likely fit into this classification. Ba’al, who Elijah faced down, also means “Lord”. Most likely they are related gods… the whole ANE pantheon gets kind of complicated to say the least! They were very “tolerant” people.
This kind of infernal power would explain the power behind the confrontations between Moses vs. the Egyptian Priests and Elijah vs. the Priests of Baal.
Miracles in heresies such as Protestantism and Islam could theologically, I think, be put down to the fact that they have some truth in them and are not explicitly satanic as the ones mentioned above.
Another option to consider (in terms of miracles, not exorcisms) is some kind of native spiritual power that human beings may have and is neutral so-to-speak in terms of good and bad. For example, many paranormal phenomena like telepathy and remote viewing (the former exists irrefutably, see Sheldrake, the latter is more contestable). Could this be responsible for certain miracles?
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
I’m sure of it. I know that some pagan rites are used to invoke Egyptian gods such as Ra, Isis, Horus, etc. My thought is that these Egyptian gods were demons masquerading as the Egyptian gods they were thought to be.
If used in rituals, I believe demons appear as these pagan gods.Melech “King” (or Moloch in the Hebrew parody on the word, using the vowels for “Holoth”- abomination) would most likely fit into this classification. Ba’al, who Elijah faced down, also means “Lord”. Most likely they are related gods… the whole ANE pantheon gets kind of complicated to say the least! They were very “tolerant” people.
Yes. I love the story actually. Shows God’s power.
While I don’t like the term “heresies” for Protestantism, I understand from your point of view that this is the case. Yes, as long as they are not explicity Satanic in origin, other religions can repel demonic activity and miracles can be attributed to them.
I believe humans are spiritual beings having a physical experience. Humans can use their minds for miracles. Using hypnosis, our minds can be reprogrammed to rid the body of illnesses and change habits. The mind which was given us by God has much potential.
Peace…
MW
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Are you saying a demon can not choose to leave on their own for the purpose of giving support to false doctrine?
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
It depends on their individual assignment. It’s possible. Demons are given assignments to fulfill. If they were given that assignment to do so, then they would try their best to fulfill that. There is a hierarchy of demons that imitates the heavenly hieararchy of angels. You know, there are principalities, powers, seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, archangels and angels (not in that order). So it depends on their hierarchy, rank and assignment.
I can tell you that most demons that you find possessing and oppressing people don’t fall into this category of leaving for the purpose of giving support to false doctrine. The lower minions are the ones that infest us on a personal level. Your scenario I believe would fall under principalities in the Hellish hierarchy.
The evil methods and schemes of the Devil are numerous and beyond comprehension.
Your run of the mill possessed person is not possessed with a devil that is concerned with such motives. The devil wants to tempt, cause doubt and destroy the individual’s soul from becoming what God wants them to be.
Just my opinion.
Peace…
MW
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Have you ever read Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?
If Lewis were here today and wrote a second series, what do you think he would emphasize?
If Lewis were here today and wrote a second series, what do you think he would emphasize?
P
planten
Guest
For this topic, it is necessary to understand “What is a miracle?” The nature of a miracle. Miracle is something quite unusual but nothing of the impossible. Miracle is a proof of some one’s relation with God. It is done for any person, to support him, but it is done by God, for the sake of that holy person.
There are many miracles of Jesus described in the Quran. But one has to be careful in interpretting those words. Some time, only symbolic language is used and it does not mean any actual real thing. But people think that it was a miracle.
The prophet Muhammad performed many miracles and his greatest miracle is said to be the Quran. Many non-believers demand miracles from the men of God, like people (Jewish) asked Jesus for any sign (meaning miracle). Jesus said, “No sign will be shown to the wicked generation except the sign of the prophet Jonas.”
That is another important subject, i.e. the people demanding the signs and miracles from the prophets. That is bad. It is not good to demand a miracle for the truth of a prophet.
Of course Jesus performed many miracles. They are described in the bible. The topic is about miracles in the other faiths. So, I say that there are miracles described in other faiths, such as Hindus. They have much greater high level miracles, much greater than those of the Islam and christianity.
Each miracle described in the sacred book must be considered and examined in detail as to the exact meaning of the thing. It may be something metaphoric, described in such a way that it may appear to be a miracle. But it may be something quite ordinary (normal) described in high level language.
There are many miracles of Jesus described in the Quran. But one has to be careful in interpretting those words. Some time, only symbolic language is used and it does not mean any actual real thing. But people think that it was a miracle.
The prophet Muhammad performed many miracles and his greatest miracle is said to be the Quran. Many non-believers demand miracles from the men of God, like people (Jewish) asked Jesus for any sign (meaning miracle). Jesus said, “No sign will be shown to the wicked generation except the sign of the prophet Jonas.”
That is another important subject, i.e. the people demanding the signs and miracles from the prophets. That is bad. It is not good to demand a miracle for the truth of a prophet.
Of course Jesus performed many miracles. They are described in the bible. The topic is about miracles in the other faiths. So, I say that there are miracles described in other faiths, such as Hindus. They have much greater high level miracles, much greater than those of the Islam and christianity.
Each miracle described in the sacred book must be considered and examined in detail as to the exact meaning of the thing. It may be something metaphoric, described in such a way that it may appear to be a miracle. But it may be something quite ordinary (normal) described in high level language.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of **Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, **
10And with all **deceivableness of unrighteousness **in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of **Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, **
10And with all **deceivableness of unrighteousness **in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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