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MarcoPolo
Guest
Here is a thread from a while back collecting examples of miracles that underwent scientific scrutiny.
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FaithInTheSon
Guest
Is that what their stories say?
If it was God’s will it happened. If not they lied.
We can not predict God’s will; that does not mean you can get to the Father without the Son.
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sophion
Guest
so is this a lie, or is it god’s will:
2 Kings 2:22-24
*And the waters were healed unto this day, according to the word of Eliseus, which he spoke.
And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys.*
massacred 42 boys for teasing a so called “prophet”!
obviously a lie.
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FaithInTheSon
Guest
I don’t know… before the Savior things were slightly different.so is this a lie, or is it god’s will:
2 Kings 2:22-24
*And the waters were healed unto this day, according to the word of Eliseus, which he spoke.
And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys.*
massacred 42 boys for teasing a so called “prophet”!
obviously a lie.
Revelations does warn that the bible will be corrupted (by warning against being the one to do it).
OTOH Like I said you can not comprehend the will of God. If those 42 boys defaulted into eternal life…
who knows.
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Anselm33
Guest
Some of the miracles related in the Bible are perhaps paraphrases of actual events. In any case, miracles are outside the domain of science. Science is limited and can not explain all we encounter (I say this as a physicist who has published and worked in the field). Read C.S. Lewis “Miracles” and Fr. Stanley Jaki “The Limits of a Limtless Science” to get a better notion of why science has nothing to say about miracles. By the way, there is proof for many current miracles. For example, the miracles at Lourdes–see
miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html
and
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2866&CFID=16900456&CFTOKEN=62908832
When a person is elevated to sainthood, it is required that the miracles attested to his intervention be certified and investigated by a “devil’s advocate” of the Church; the criteria are extremely rigorous.
The above are only a few examples of miracles that have occurred. Perhaps the biggest miracle, which science cannot explain, is that the Universe exists, and that it is governed by laws which we can understand but know not why they work or, as the great mathematical physicist Eugen Wigner put it: whence “The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences”.
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Anselm33
Guest
I should add that science depends on reproducible results of measurements made under controlled conditions; miracles, by definition, are irregular occurences, irreproducible and do not occur under controlled conditions. Please inform yourself about what science can and can not understand–again, I strongly recommend you read Fr. Jaki’s book, “The Limits of a Limitless Science”.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
I see you have your list of " talking points. " My Bible has this as 4 Kings 2:23-24. This was answered in CA in 2009 :so is this a lie, or is it god’s will:
2 Kings 2:22-24
*And the waters were healed unto this day, according to the word of Eliseus, which he spoke.
And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys.*
massacred 42 boys for teasing a so called “prophet”!
obviously a lie.
Haydock Bible says, Cursed them. This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet, and of a divine inspiration; God being determined to punish in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf-worship) who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers. (Challoner) — The boys themselves were not so little as not to be aware of the insult they were offering to a minister of the God of Juda; and probably they acted thus out of hatred to him, at the instigation of their idolatrous parents. (Sanctius) (Calmet) — Lord. He called on him (Menochius) to revenge his own cause, (Haydock) “that the people might learn to take care of their souls, by the fear of death.” (St. Augustine) (Du Hamel)
Tertullian said, The Creator, let loose bears against children, in order to avenge His prophet Elisha, who had been mocked by them. This antithesis is impudent enough, since it throws together things so different as infants and children, an age still innocent, and one already capable of discretion—able to mock, if not to blaspheme. As therefore God is a just God, He spared not impious children, exacting as He does honour for every time of life, and especially, of course, from youth.
The lesson is that we cannot understand the ways of God. We cannot judge his actions since he is the author of life and our continued existence. God had already decided to destroy Bethel for their impiety. The lesson for us is that God still governs the universe and the ways of men, governments. His direct intervention is this dramatic fashion was reiterated in the New Testment. In the Acts of the Apostles, a man and his wife were struck down by God after withholding a portion of their promised donation to the young Church. He shows us by such acts that he follows tha acts of men closely and eventually will punish evil. So we learn the wisdom of early repentence and resolve to be obedient. Continued unrepentence will be punished.
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jere610
Guest
What do you classify as a “real miracle”? You are looking for explanations for things where there are no explanations, thus why they are called miracles. Saints are canonized by the Pope after they have had a minimum of two, validated miracles attributed to them. In the modern day, this investigation is intense. Scientists and doctors and real data is used to try and essentially attribute a cure for a disease to something other than a “miracle.” Only when it is determined that there is no explainable cause for something will the Church validate a miracle.
I’d encourage you to read stories about various saints canonized in just the last 20-30 years who maybe even lived in the 20th century (i.e. Padre Pio) or had miracles attributed to them in the 21st century. Take the recent canonization of Saint Kateri and the validation of the second miracle:
“On December 19, 2011, Pope Benedict XVI approved the second miracle needed for Blessed Kateri’s canonization.[28] The authorized miracle dates from 2006, when a young boy in Washington state survived a severe flesh-eating bacterium. Doctors had been unable to stop the progress of the disease by surgery and advised his parents he was likely to die. The boy received the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick from a Catholic priest. As the boy is half Lummi Indian, the parents said they prayed through Tekakwitha for divine intercession, as did their family and friends, and an extended network contacted through their son’s classmates.[29] A Catholic nun, Sister Kateri Mitchell visited the boy’s bedside and placed a relic of Tekakwitha, a bone fragment, against his body and prayed together with his parents.[30] The next day, the infection stopped its progression. [31]”
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=154
As a Catholic, I’m a believer that the Sacred Scripture was written by authors inspired by the Holy Spirit. I have Faith and belief in all that was written – including those older miracles – just because there weren’t sophisticated ways of recording, proving, and validating these things in ancient history does not mean they didn’t exist. After all, we have ways today of validating miracles, and people will still claim they don’t exist.
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buffalo
Guest
Absolutely not. Miracles by definition do not have natural explanations.
Jesus used miracles that went beyond natural laws to show His Divinity.
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sophion
Guest
real miracles? those of biblical proportions- things everyone could see with their own eyes and recordable.
saints? scientists & doctors? riiiiiiiiight!
how is that a miracle? the human body works in mysterious ways. regardless of belief some people get seriously sick all of a sudden, and sometimes the seriously sick recovers all of a sudden.
a true miracle would be if someone suddenly grows a new limb!
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Della
Guest
I have a feeling you will not want to believe it, but here it is: clairval.com/lettres/en/2006/12/08/2061206.htm.real miracles? those of biblical proportions- things everyone could see with their own eyes and recordable.
saints? scientists & doctors? riiiiiiiiight!
how is that a miracle? the human body works in mysterious ways. regardless of belief some people get seriously sick all of a sudden, and sometimes the seriously sick recovers all of a sudden.
a true miracle would be if someone suddenly grows a new limb!
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sophion
Guest
its from a biased source. a 400 year old story. how would i know it really happened?
how come the best of miracle stories can only come from legends. there are now 5 billion people. and not one miracle.
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Della
Guest
So, the fact that it fully documented cuts no ice with you? You asked for an example and you’ve been given it. That you won’t accept it is entirely up to you. We’re not here to convince you, but to provide evidence. What you do with it is your own affair.
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buffalo
Guest
Miracles happen all the time. Many are not reported, many are not investigated.
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sophion
Guest
my friend, cameras are all around. even in the 3rd world. and people will post anything and everything in youtube. and the likes of cnn scours it for anything newsworthy.
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sophion
Guest
i’m sorry but its documented by one of little credibility.So, the fact that it fully documented cuts no ice with you? You asked for an example and you’ve been given it. That you won’t accept it is entirely up to you. We’re not here to convince you, but to provide evidence. What you do with it is your own affair.
put yourself in my shoes! would you believe miracle stories by muslims just because its ‘documented’ by their religion? of course not! you will demand for a credible NEUTRAL third party confirmation!
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alex85716
Guest
What proof do you have beside oral and written tradition for any ancient event or person? Babylon? Persia? Rome? Sparta? Socrates? Nero?
See my point?
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buffalo
Guest
Google is your friend. Search on recent Vatican approved miracles.
FYI - Lourdes claims over 4 million miracles. The Vatican has approved only sixty or so. The investigation is very rigorous for a public miracle to be approved. Be careful in your search though of fraud.
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alex85716
Guest
You probably believe in the miracle story of biological evolution, despite credible third party scientific evidence to the contrary. Correct your own religion first before you critique ours, thanks.
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sophion
Guest
FYI, the vatican believes in evolution. so whats your problem with it?
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