Miserable with NFP!

[graceandglory]

My point is that with about 4% of Catholics using NFP the small resulting divorce rate among those folks is most likely related to the fact that they are very religious and their faith abhors divorce.
Peace!

Good try. But wrong. Many protestants are very religious and they will quote “God Hates Divorce” from the Bible, Malachi 2. Yet they divorce as often as the rest of the unchurched world.

I was and still am “very religious.” I hate divorce. I wanted to be “open to life” and have intimacy with my protestant X husband without barriers and pills. He was totally opposed to it. I guess I must have been Catholic in my heart the whole time. But the relationship we had ended in divorce just like half of my protestant friends.

Every single friend of mine over the past 20 years who got married and did not use ABC in their marriage is still married, both Catholic AND Protesetant.

 

[graceandglory]

In my mind the church can choose to go the way of the Amish (who I also admire and do not slight in this comparison) or it can accept that it is wrong about this and change to reflect the norm of society. It will be interesting to watch what happens.

The teachings of the Church and the Magisterium will NOT change on this matter.
Changing with the times, and changing to reflect society is what protestants do.
I can’t tell you how many divorced pastors I’ve had over the years. And they were in the Bible only churches.

The Catholic Church will not change in faith and morals. It’s a done deal. People may change, the number of practicing faithful Catholics may shrink, but the Church will never change.

"Upon this Rock, I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

 

[mamacita]

The teachings of the Church and the Magisterium will NOT change on this matter.
Changing with the times, and changing to reflect society is what protestants do.
I can’t tell you how many divorced pastors I’ve had over the years. And they were in the Bible only churches.

The Catholic Church will not change in faith and morals. It’s a done deal. People may change, the number of practicing faithful Catholics may shrink, but the Church will never change.

"Upon this Rock, I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

My DH always says to people who want to change w/ the times, “where in the Bible does it state that in the year 2 thousand and something that contraception will be perfectly acceptable?” It doesn’t. So it’s not up to us to make the rules or change the book that is the foundation of our Catholic faith.

 

[GFarmer]

The teachings of the Church and the Magisterium will NOT change on this matter.
Changing with the times, and changing to reflect society is what protestants do.
I can’t tell you how many divorced pastors I’ve had over the years. And they were in the Bible only churches.

The Catholic Church will not change in faith and morals. It’s a done deal. People may change, the number of practicing faithful Catholics may shrink, but the Church will never change.

"Upon this Rock, I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

We will see. The church has changed plenty over the years. Pope John Paul II put a bulwark of conservative bishops and theologians in place that has certainly slowed this change. 30 years ago there were many priests, bishops and theologians who were on the way to making these changes. Pope John Paul I indeed stated that he was going to.

I see that the current Pope has issued a new list of deadly sins and made contraception part of it.

Maybe the church will take its stand and see where it comes out. But there will be many fewer in the pews and giving to the collection.

Peace!

 

[StratusRose]

We will see. The church has changed plenty over the years. Pope John Paul II put a bulwark of conservative bishops and theologians in place that has certainly slowed this change. 30 years ago there were many priests, bishops and theologians who were on the way to making these changes. Pope John Paul I indeed stated that he was going to.

I see that the current Pope has issued a new list of deadly sins and made contraception part of it.

Maybe the church will take its stand and see where it comes out. But there will be many fewer in the pews and giving to the collection.

Peace!

Do you realize that the Church sees doctrine such as contraception as virtually UNCHANGEABLE? Pope Benedict XVI couldn’t change it even if he wanted to! Once a pope has spoken infallibly on an issue of doctrine, it CANNOT be changed. The church is not a democracy.

Sure, other things have changed in the church such as certain disciplines. For instance, not eating meat on on Fridays is only reserved to Fridays during Lent.

I think you need to learn the significance of dogma and doctrine as well as papal infallibility.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

We will see. The church has changed plenty over the years. Pope John Paul II put a bulwark of conservative bishops and theologians in place that has certainly slowed this change. 30 years ago there were many priests, bishops and theologians who were on the way to making these changes. Pope John Paul I indeed stated that he was going to.

I see that the current Pope has issued a new list of deadly sins and made contraception part of it.

Maybe the church will take its stand and see where it comes out. But there will be many fewer in the pews and giving to the collection.

Peace!

And those that were around before Humanae Vitae thought that Pope Paul VI would come out and accept contraception :tsktsk: exactly the opposite.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Maybe the church will take its stand and see where it comes out. But there will be many fewer in the pews and giving to the collection.

**Is it any surprise that only a few will remain true? The bible and Christ himself said as much. I’d rather be one of the few. Especially knowing where the many will go in the end. **

---

**Again, what the heck does what everyone else is doing have to do with the issue at hand? Are we little children that the only argument we can give our Father for disobediance is, “But I wanna! You can’t make me! I don’t like doing that! You’re wrong! You just don’t understand the times, Dad! Everyone else doesn’t have to and doesn’t! Other churches don’t have this rule!” and marching away with a petulant stomping of feet? **

---

**I find that attitude to be unchristian regardless of the denomination. A christian must base such decisions on God’s will, not the will of the population around them. **

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

**Is it any surprise that only a few will remain true? The bible and Christ himself said as much. I’d rather be one of the few. Especially knowing where the many will go in the end. **

---

**Again, what the heck does what everyone else is doing have to do with the issue at hand? Are we little children that the only argument we can give our Father for disobediance is, “But I wanna! You can’t make me! I don’t like doing that! You’re wrong! You just don’t understand the times, Dad! Everyone else doesn’t have to and doesn’t! Other churches don’t have this rule!” and marching away with a petulant stomping of feet? **

---

**I find that attitude to be unchristian regardless of the denomination. A christian must base such decisions on God’s will, not the will of the population around them. **

Martha,

I just wanted to tell you thanks for your posts in this thread, they have been very refreshing. You post things they way they sound in my mind just never seem to come out that way when I type. okay so my thougts are never this clear…anyways, thank you.

 

[whatevergirl]

According to 1234’s profile, 1234 is a Unitarian Universalist, so it’s unlikely that the Catholic Church would consider 1234 to be Christian (although there are variances in individual beliefs.)

What is it about this thread that’s attracting all the non-Catholics, anyway? I thought the Family Life forum was for Catholics to discuss family and relationship issues with other Catholics. Such discussions would be meaningless to a non-Catholic, because non-Catholics are not aiming to implement Catholic teaching in their lives.

It’s not a surprise that most non-Catholics don’t feel compelled to practice NFP…that goes without saying…so I guess I don’t understand the point of this thread…

NFP is not an exclusively Catholic practice, however. Many of my non Catholic friends follow NFP–more so than some of my Catholic ones.

 

[graceandglory]

We will see. The church has changed plenty over the years.
Peace!

But NOT in Faith and Morals.

(see the Creeds and the Catechism)

For more understanding on the theological reasons, and an introduction to just about every teaching in the Catholic Church on faith and morals, see Man and Woman, He Created Them/.U] by Pope John Paul II. Or for an easier read, Christopher West’s Theology of the Body Explained.

 

[graceandglory]

We will see. The church has changed plenty over the years.
.

Maybe the church will take its stand and see where it comes out.

Peace!

From an article at Catholic World News dated March 10, 2008

Sin is an objective wrong: a violation of God’s law. What is sinful today will be sinful tomorrow, and a deadly sin will remain deadly, whether or not Telegraph editors recognize the moral danger. The traditional list of deadly sins remains intact; nothing has replaced it. Greed, gluttony, and lust are as wrong today as they were a day or a year or a century ago. If Archbishop Girotti referred to “new” sins, it is because some of the offenses he named (such as genetic manipulation) were impossible in the past, and others (such as international drug trafficking) are much more prevalent today, in a global society. Insofar as people could have engaged in these activities a century ago, they would have been sinful then as well.

A sin is not a sin because simply an archbishop proclaims it so. Sin, the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us, “is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience…” The precepts of “reason, truth, and right conscience” do not shift in response to political trends, nor do they change at the whim of Vatican officials.

Only our understanding changes.

 

[luvmykids]

Martha,

I just wanted to tell you thanks for your posts in this thread, they have been very refreshing. You post things they way they sound in my mind just never seem to come out that way when I type. okay so my thougts are never this clear…anyways, thank you.

It’s funny that you mention this, because I was just thinking this and just got done telling Martha this myself in an email last night!!

Why can’t I seem to get it out like that?!?

 

[luvmykids]

Martha,

I just wanted to tell you thanks for your posts in this thread, they have been very refreshing. You post things they way they sound in my mind just never seem to come out that way when I type. okay so my thougts are never this clear…anyways, thank you.

It’s funny that you mention this, because I was just thinking this and just got done telling Martha this myself in an email last night!!

Why can’t I seem to get it out like that?!?

 

[1234]

Well that’s a relief. I had some trouble with the link that you provided (thank you for that) so I’ll take your word for it. Maybe I’ll try the link again later as I am quite intersted. The birth defects lawsuit involving contraceptive jelly that I read about was in 1985, so what you’re saying makes sense.

6% is with perfect use, right? I doubt that I would have any problem using a diaphragm properly but a 6% failure rate would just be too risky for me, personally.

TO each her own.

I don’t think this stat included spermicide use, which is completely safe, as per the beginning of my last post.

Each has to decide what is best for her and her partner (sorry, but a lot of these folks aren’t married…) ABC, NFP or whatever.

 

[agapewolf]

TO each her own.

Each has to decide what is best for her and her partner .

and then Eve ate the apple…

 

[jbuttrey]

I hear a lot of failure in dealing with NFP thank God we are all accepted just where we are.

What I would like to know is why is the idea of marriage to have children not successful in all couples who know why the church has taught this.

It must be

We have lost parenting skills the big families were to long ago.

The culture is against children even our churches.

No grandparents are kicking in or church loaner grandparents.

Or is there hidden dysfunctional activities and satanic attacks that are destroying these well meaning idealist youth.

My family did all the wrong things you all talk about so pray for me and our generation, we were a bad example for you.

John

 

[ack]

I see that the current Pope has issued a new list of deadly sins and made contraception part of it.

This is not an accurate description of what happened – the idea that the Pope defined new “deadly sins” was invented by the sensationalist British press.

For a more accurate account of what happened, look at this. (Note that the Pope doesn’t even have anything to do with this – the story came from an interview with Archbishop Girotti.)

 

[GFarmer]

I think you need to learn the significance of dogma and doctrine as well as papal infallibility.

Good one. Papal infallibility is my biggest reason for the lapse in my faith. Many things have been said and many have been condemned as Heretics over the years with decrees and encyclicals that are supposablly infallible or close to it.

Ask Galileo, and those who endured the hell of the inquisition. How infallible are those Popes who spoke against evils like thinking the world was not flat or that they could be free to practice religion that did not agree with Rome.

 

[GFarmer]

Good try. But wrong. Many protestants are very religious and they will quote “God Hates Divorce” from the Bible, Malachi 2. Yet they divorce as often as the rest of the unchurched world.

I was and still am “very religious.” I hate divorce. I wanted to be “open to life” and have intimacy with my protestant X husband without barriers and pills. He was totally opposed to it. I guess I must have been Catholic in my heart the whole time. But the relationship we had ended in divorce just like half of my protestant friends.

Every single friend of mine over the past 20 years who got married and did not use ABC in their marriage is still married, both Catholic AND Protesetant.

I do not mean to judge your marriage and I sincerely am sorry that things did not work out between you & your X.

I do however think that these are the type of discussion’s & decisions that have to happen between couples before they are married. The Catholic Church actually does a pretty nice job of preparing people for marriage. I asked a young friend recently how his engaged encounter weekend was, he said "pretty decent except for the two hour lecture on co-habitating and NFP,. He said of 32 couples thier, 31 of them were living together and except for one no one would consider NFP (not the one who was not living together but “hippee” couple that wanted 10 kids).

The vast majority of my friends & family used ABC & the divorce rate among them is much less then 50% (maybe 10%)

 

[StratusRose]

Good one. Papal infallibility is my biggest reason for the lapse in my faith. Many things have been said and many have been condemned as Heretics over the years with decrees and encyclicals that are supposablly infallible or close to it.

Ask Galileo, and those who endured the hell of the inquisition. How infallible are those Popes who spoke against evils like thinking the world was not flat or that they could be free to practice religion that did not agree with Rome.

Wrong again. Not a single pope spoke infallibly about Galileo. Whatever comes out of the pope’s mouth is not infallible. It’s not like if Pope Benedict said that cats are better than dogs then it’s automatically infallible. Some popes have never spoken infallibly. They usually made it perfectly clear when they were. Do your research.