Miserable with NFP!

[Quinault]

As an outsider I have to say that not allowing NABC (non-abortive birth control) is really scary and seems dogmatic. I know that the Eastern Orthodox church seems to take it on more of a case by case basis than the Catholic church does. And the strangest thing to me is how judgemental this issue becomes here! Someone will come onto these boards and say that their priest said it was OK for them to do “A” and a whole heap of people on here wil contradict what their priest said. Even though their priest knows their situation better than anyone here!

 

[PennitentMan]

Also, the unititive nature of sex is a good thing that was created by God. That is on reason that sex is reserved for marriage, a kind of chemical and emotional bonding takes place during sex.

That does not mean that everyone who has lots of sex has intimacy in the marriage, I have seen some miserable married couples who have that bond but lack intimacy.

Agreed.

But Look at the flip side:

The lack of sex in a marriage, Catholic or otherwise, is definately a recipe for disaster, unless both parties agree and are totally on board with abstinence…and even then it’s dangerous.
Heck, even the Bible speaks of this!

Sex is definately a form of intimacy and is intergral to each marriage, Catholic or otherwise.

A sexless marriage (in it’s worse and ultimate form) results in pornography, affairs and seperation, unless, as I said above, parties agree and are totally on board with abstinence.

 

[manualman]

A sexless marriage (in it’s worse and ultimate form) results in pornography, affairs and seperation, unless, as I said above, parties agree and are totally on board with abstinence.

Nonsense. You reduce man to an animal entirely unable to channel his urges and desires. Would you apply this principle to a couple in which the woman had been horrible injured somehow which made sex impossible? Of course not. But the logic you use implies that a man in such a situation would inevitably do porn, affairs, etc. I’m no saint in matters of purity, but I DO at least take responsibility for my failures and not pawn them off as inevitable results of outside forces on me.

Periodic abstinance does not CAUSE marital problems. But existing marital problems CAN make periodic abstinance intolerable. I should know, I’m one of those physical touch love language people too. When you stop seeing the relational problems as being imposed by NFP, you can actually make progress on fixing them. When you are convinced that NFP prevents a healthy relationship, the relationship never CAN grow beyond them - the scapegoat is too convenient.

 

[whatevergirl]

I didn’t have a lot of problems with NFP…except that it did not work when we expected it to, if that’s a way of putting it. Both kids were born through NFP. LOL So, for us, it didn’t ‘work,’ but we still liked the method.

But I think what PM is trying to say is that NFP, one would think, would lead people to being closer, not further apart and frustrated. It is curious to me as to why God would want that for a marriage? Marriage is not about sex, but God created it to feel very good, He did that. Why would He not want us to give one another pleasure, for the sake of being intimate? If a person cannot have children…let’s say, they are diagnosed infertile…does this mean they shouldn’t enjoy the marital embrace with his/her spouse? Does it mean that I should have had 10 kids, if my body was capable of doing so? I have heard priests talk about this on EWTN, Father Pakwa comes to mind, who said that it’s ok to decide on the number of kids one has…we all are not called to having large families, and I’m not less of a Catholic for having two kids, as opposed to other Catholics who have 9 kids.

 

[PennitentMan]

Nonsense. You reduce man to an animal entirely unable to channel his urges and desires. Would you apply this principle to a couple in which the woman had been horrible injured somehow which made sex impossible? Of course not.

Can you be sure of that? It’s definitely happened before.

But the logic you use implies that a man in such a situation would inevitably do porn, affairs, etc. I’m no saint in matters of purity, but I DO at least take responsibility for my failures and not pawn them off as inevitable results of outside forces on me.

I said in it’s worst form. Unless one is a saint, at a certain point the temptation will be too strong. We are all human.

Of course I take responsibility for my actions. If I fall, I go to confession and get up again. It’s my fault that I fall, of course it is. It’s me not being strong enough in my resolve, not being strong enough in fighting temptation. But I’m no saint, and even the saints are not without sin. We are all sinners.
I’m saying if people were happy in marriage, they would not go looking for happiness elsewhere. It’s the same with intimacy.

Periodic abstinence does not CAUSE marital problems. But existing marital problems CAN make periodic abstinence intolerable. I should know, I’m one of those physical touch love language people too. When you stop seeing the relational problems as being imposed by NFP, you can actually make progress on fixing them. When you are convinced that NFP prevents a healthy relationship, the relationship never CAN grow beyond them - the scapegoat is too convenient.

Periodic abstinence…I’m not talking about the lucky people that can have sex for 22 out of 31 days of the month whilst practicing NFP. They will have no idea what I’m talking about and will definitely condemn my thoughts…
I’m talking about those of us that in the struggle to follow NFP, have had to go for very long periods of time without sexual intimacy. Maybe once a month for me, usually every two months. Now try that for 4 years. That is where I’m coming from.

I know how my wife and I was before this, and I can see when it started. She sees it too. It’s not a scapegoat, it’s the logical conclusion of an investigative journey that started in February.

I’m sorry that you seem to think that my marriage has relationship and marital problems. My wife and I have a fabulous relationship, I could not be happier with my wife. Our level of intimacy is a different matter…for both of us.

 

[whatevergirl]

Can you be sure of that? It’s definitely happened before.

I said in it’s worst form. Unless one is a saint, at a certain point the temptation will be too strong. We are all human.

Of course I take responsibility for my actions. If I fall, I go to confession and get up again. It’s my fault that I fall, of course it is. It’s me not being strong enough in my resolve, not being strong enough in fighting temptation. But I’m no saint, and even the saints are not without sin. We are all sinners.
I’m saying if people were happy in marriage, they would not go looking for happiness elsewhere. It’s the same with intimacy.

Periodic abstinence…I’m not talking about the lucky people that can have sex for 22 out of 31 days of the month whilst practicing NFP. They will have no idea what I’m talking about and will definitely condemn my thoughts…
I’m talking about those of us that in the struggle to follow NFP, have had to go for very long periods of time without sexual intimacy. Maybe once a month for me, usually every two months. Now try that for 4 years. That is where I’m coming from.

I know how my wife and I was before this, and I can see when it started. She sees it too. It’s not a scapegoat, it’s the logical conclusion of an investigative journey that started in February.

I’m sorry that you seem to think that my marriage has relationship and marital problems. My wife and I have a fabulous relationship, I could not be happier with my wife. Our level of intimacy is a different matter…for both of us.

PM–why do you find yourself going long periods of time without sexual intimacy? Women typically ovulate monthly…so, why would a couple go looooong periods of time without sex, by following NFP? Providing they are interested in having children, but even so…there are ‘safe’ days…and they are usually monthly. Guess I don’t fully understand your statement.

 

[PennitentMan]

But I think what PM is trying to say is that NFP, one would think, would lead people to being closer, not further apart and frustrated. It is curious to me as to why God would want that for a marriage? Marriage is not about sex, but God created it to feel very good, He did that. Why would He not want us to give one another pleasure, for the sake of being intimate? If a person cannot have children…let’s say, they are diagnosed infertile…does this mean they shouldn’t enjoy the marital embrace with his/her spouse? Does it mean that I should have had 10 kids, if my body was capable of doing so? I have heard priests talk about this on EWTN, Father Pakwa comes to mind, who said that it’s ok to decide on the number of kids one has…we all are not called to having large families, and I’m not less of a Catholic for having two kids, as opposed to other Catholics who have 9 kids.

Exactly.

People tend to take the Unitive aspect totally out of the picture when it comes to NFP. They make it all about pro-creation. But it was most certainly also intended to be unitive.

 

[Quinault]

I have charted for about 7 years at this point. And there are cycles where I have fertile EW mucuos cycle days 10 all the way until one day before my cycles start.

 

[homewardbound]

I just want to say I am sorry for your struggles. It sounds very stressful.

I have decided that when I am married I do not want to use anything. NFP, ABC, its all the same. I am going in believing God will give me children if He wants me to have them, or He won’t. Not my job to handle procreation. I have no right. Its His. I plan to put my whole faith, and body, into His hands and no one elses. Will I regret that? Time will tell I guess.

I do hope things get easier for you and your family. I can only imagine how rough it must be. Please take care.

 

[whatevergirl]

Exactly.

People tend to take the Unitive aspect totally out of the picture when it comes to NFP. They make it all about pro-creation. But it was most certainly also intended to be unitive.

I agree with that…I do not believe that God would create such a pleasurable act to be stifled in a marriage between a loving couple…who wants to please one another. That is not being animalistic, that’s showing love without words. (well, maybe some people use words…um, nevermind:blush: ) lol

Is anyone here saying that though–that sex within a marriage, is strictly for procreation?

If you want to read a fascinating book on this…about love sex, etc…read Pope JP2’s book…Love and Responsibility…I mean Pope JP2 really talks about sex in a very real way…not in a sterile way, or a stanch way. It’s such an elevated way to look at love and the marital embrace. If you have not yet read that book, PM…I’d encourage you to check it out. It will (pleasantly) surprise you…I think we think as lay people…what can a man who has never been married really say about the matter, that will relate to me? But, he does, and then some–it’s a fascinating book. I marvel at the late Pope JP2. I miss him.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM–why do you find yourself going long periods of time without sexual intimacy? Women typically ovulate monthly…so, why would a couple go looooong periods of time without sex, by following NFP? Providing they are interested in having children, but even so…there are ‘safe’ days…and they are usually monthly. Guess I don’t fully understand your statement.

My wife’s cycles fluctuate very much, to the point where we have to be very conservative and careful with NFP to successfully avoid conception. We only have about 5-7 “go” days each month. Add to that that my wife is very ill (part of the reason to avoid conception), the window has to be open and she has to feel good. It leaves us with a very small window and of course the pressure is on to “perform” during the window too…a real mood killer. Add to that the fact that during “go” days, women usually are not aroused, not like they are during their fertile cycle, and you get a very very pressure filled situation.

And even being super-ultra conservatively careful, we still conceived when technically it was impossible. Even our doctor confirmed that we should not have conceived on the day we made love. See, it was the only time in approx 2 months that we actually made love, so we could with a very real certainty say when we conceived.
And now, of course being pregnant, she is terribly ill (as per your thread that I posted on) so that doesn’t help matters.

The crux though, is that with NFP, we are forced to perform under pressure, There is no spontaneity. And for my wife, it is a real mood killer since she was not in the mood to start with, she had to use a lot of will power to even get to the point of engaging in any sort of foreplay.
It’s terrible for me to know that my wife needs that much work to get in the mood to make love to me.

Before NFP, we were truly in a unitive marriage. Now it’s robotic sex…if any.

 

[PennitentMan]

Is anyone here saying that though–that sex within a marriage, is strictly for procreation?

Not in so many words, but sometimes it’s implied. Not specifically on this board, but by the NFP Mindset in general, I have found.

Thanks for the recomendation, I’ll give it a read

PM

 

[agapewolf]

Pennitent, it sounds like you are in the wrong method. Honestly, it really does

The philosophy of “conservative use” I think is part of what is hurting you here. (not that you are using it conservatively, but that there is an “approach”)

Creighton gives you definate “phase I” go days.

If there is daily fertile type mucuss, like almost every day then she’s got a health problem. possibly a cervical aversion or something else. That could EASILY get cleared up so you can read the signs better.

My experience working in ministry is that folks who practiced chastity before marriage, learned NFP well before marriage, had great experiences with it. Those that learned it during marriage, or were not chaste, or used ABC and changed over had lots of more difficulties.
I’ve been chaste in very serious relationships where I felt extremely close and was committed…it was difficult, but survivable.

You say there are days you want each other intimately and it is not allowed.

That is untrue,. It is ALWAYS allowed in marriage. It is YOUR OWN choice and YOUR OWN rules that is not allowing it.

ABC is NOT more reliable that NFP. You will find yourself pregnant using that, and end up resenting the child.

Make sure that you are PRAYING CONSTANTLY to be open to more children. I have no doubt that you are exhausted in many ways from your current children. Make sure that you aren’t expecting too high of a luxurious lifestyle.

(please do not think I"m accusing…I don’t know you at all…these are just generic things to think about I would suggest to anyone…no need to defend it to me here either).

Seriously. try creighton

 

[Em_in_FL]

Hi PM…

One question that just came to mind… you mentioned your wife is ill. I’m sorry you have to deal with that illness in your marriage. Could this illness be affecting her fertility? How fluctual are her cycles? The reason I ask is because there are illnesses (like PCOS and thyroid related issues) that can affect fertility signs… making them difficult to read and understand. Often times when you address the root cause of the illness then the side effects of irregular fertility can be corrected.
Maybe something to consider looking into.

Having only 5-7 days per month is NOT normal. You are obviously dealing with a unique case with your wife’s health issues. This may simply be a cross for you to bear within YOUR marriage. NFP did not cause this to happen, nor is it to blame for your wife’s health issues. NFP may be difficult to use for those who have health concerns. Again, this isn’t caused by NFP… so NFP can’t be blamed here.

I’m sorry you are struggling. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[whatevergirl]

My wife’s cycles fluctuate very much, to the point where we have to be very conservative and careful with NFP to successfully avoid conception. We only have about 5-7 “go” days each month. Add to that that my wife is very ill (part of the reason to avoid conception), the window has to be open and she has to feel good. It leaves us with a very small window and of course the pressure is on to “perform” during the window too…a real mood killer. Add to that the fact that during “go” days, women usually are not aroused, not like they are during their fertile cycle, and you get a very very pressure filled situation.

And even being super-ultra conservatively careful, we still conceived when technically it was impossible. Even our doctor confirmed that we should not have conceived on the day we made love. See, it was the only time in approx 2 months that we actually made love, so we could with a very real certainty say when we conceived.
And now, of course being pregnant, she is terribly ill (as per your thread that I posted on) so that doesn’t help matters.

The crux though, is that with NFP, we are forced to perform under pressure, There is no spontaneity. And for my wife, it is a real mood killer since she was not in the mood to start with, she had to use a lot of will power to even get to the point of engaging in any sort of foreplay.
It’s terrible for me to know that my wife needs that much work to get in the mood to make love to me.

Before NFP, we were truly in a unitive marriage. Now it’s robotic sex…if any.

There has to be someone in the medical field that can help you both. Believe me, I’m sure your wife is not happy about it, either. She’s ill, and has that to deal with plus knowing she can’t satisfy you…or your marital needs. She has needs too, brother. But her illness mind be dwarfing her ‘moods,’ and therefore stifling your sex life. It isn’t meant to be that much work…or hardship. I would seek out a good spritual advisor…and second, a sex therapist…one that is not nutsy new age type…but, one that truly has expertise in dealing with your wife’s situation, and how to help you both make ‘the most’ of the situation.

And, get that book…trust me, it will at the very least, give you insight into sexuality. It can be frustrating, but in going to your problem, too, PM, you could just be exhausted…you know? Your last post depicted an exhausting life…but please know, your wife I’m sure wishes she could satisfy you but she also wishes for a sexually gratifying relationship with you, too. I can’t imagine any wife not wanting that with her husband, whom she loves. But, her illness could be preventing natural things to take place, and so it requires ‘work’ to get things moving in the right direction.

I will pray for you, PM. You and your wife are earning your wings in heaven…just remember that.

 

[Gaurdian]

What, WEGirl said.

PM-----Also, maybe things are a little to pressurized.

“The crux though, is that with NFP, we are forced to perform under pressure, There is no spontaneity. And for my wife, it is a real mood killer since she was not in the mood to start with, she had to use a lot of will power to even get to the point of engaging in any sort of foreplay.
It’s terrible for me to know that my wife needs that much work to get in the mood to make love to me.”

Maybe take a step back, spend more time concentrating on the children and you. Don’t let all that testosterone go unproductive, join a gym and lift some iron, take up jogging, cycling, swimming, etc. before work. When you get home, don’t ignore your wife but focus on the kids and let your wife relax more. If you need separate beds/bedrooms for a while do that, maybe you guys need to take a step back so your can move forward, even if it is a half step at a time.

 

[whatevergirl]

What, WEGirl said.

PM-----Also, maybe things are a little to pressurized.

“The crux though, is that with NFP, we are forced to perform under pressure, There is no spontaneity. And for my wife, it is a real mood killer since she was not in the mood to start with, she had to use a lot of will power to even get to the point of engaging in any sort of foreplay.
It’s terrible for me to know that my wife needs that much work to get in the mood to make love to me.”

Maybe take a step back, spend more time concentrating on the children and you. Don’t let all that testosterone go unproductive, join a gym and lift some iron, take up jogging, cycling, swimming, etc. before work. When you get home, don’t ignore your wife but focus on the kids and let your wife relax more. If you need separate beds/bedrooms for a while do that, maybe you guys need to take a step back so your can move forward, even if it is a half step at a time.

have we “met” before, guardian?

 

[RWMorris]

I see where most of you guys are coming from (the ones that are very pro-NFP) but it can be a real burden when some of us conceive no matter WHAT we’re charting. I had four babies in three and a half years; I was exclusively breastfeeding, doing everything I was supposed to do and STILL kept getting pregnant. By baby number four, when I was only 23, I was literally miserable. I think some people may not understand the stress involved in constant pregnancy.

 

[hasikelee]

I understand what you are saying and it rings true about suffering and sacrifice.
However…
My beef with NFP is what it does to marraiges, and at the same time is proclaimed to be the “best thing ever”.

You are right, we should embrace sacrifice and it’s consequent suffering and offer it up and be enriched from it.
Life is hard and sufferings and sacrifices will happen. But usually sufferings are unwanted. They appear in your life due to circumstances that are out of our control, so we accept it and power through.
A death in the family. An amputated leg, Diabetes, etc…all these things are forms of sufferings in today’s life.

NFP is not that.
NFP is something that you willingly engage in. Usually without knowing what effect it will have on your marriage.

If someone told me to take an injection that would give me a very severe illness…but I shouldn’t worry, I will have a great opportunity to enrich your life and draw closer to God through this.
I’d tell them to shove it somewhere dark and that I would enrich my life in other ways, like Eucharistic adoration, praying the Liturgy of the Hours, The Rosary, Meditating throught the stations of the Cross, Daily Mass, frequent confession, etc

NFP is even worse than that injection, because the person handing the injection to you is not telling you what it is. They tell you how awesome it is. How it would draw you closer to your spouse and to God…when usually it’s exactly the opposite.

Llife is hard enough without having something proclaimed as awesome, and it ends up making my marriage a shadow of what it was.

That’s my beef with NFP.

You know, the leader of a 2000 year old institution started by a man that got nailed to a cross approves of this method.

I don’t get why people think a practice that involves discipline, learning physiological and biological concepts, adhering to daily routines and being open to spiritual growth is easy.

I mean, the pope totally endorses this. The church says it’s something that can be used in situations and not be sinful. Don’t you all think that’s a pretty good hint that things are going to be painful and hard?

 

[manualman]

PM,

You’ve got a hard situation and I don’t blame you for being resentful. I intended my posts to provoke thought, not hostility. I hope that comes through properly.

I still don’t think we are quite communicating though. I THINK I hear you say that you feel like the abstinence duration pushes a man towards pornography. Porn isn’t intimacy, and neither is an affair (I suppose a long term one could resemble it though). Intimacy, properly defined, is a love based on KNOWING the loved one. The fact that you cite a lack of intimacy as a push towards porn seems like a non sequitor to me UNLESS the person making the claim has fallen for this world’s confusion between passion and lust. To the average man on the street, there is no difference. In christian teaching there sure is!

Any NFP practitioner who bases his rationale solely on procreation is ignorant of the more subtle beauty of married sexuality. NFP protects BOTH the unitive AND the procreative natures of sex. A couple that uses ABC doesn’t just violate the procreative nature. ABC is also violent to the unitive nature because it inherently changes the message sent to the spouse. A couple that uses NFP or uses no method at all experiences a REAL unitive embrace free of reservations and subtle retractions, not just a licensed indulgence in lust.

The sacrament of marriage doesn’t guarantee that the married couple will have a healthy sexual relationship. JPII warned men NOT to lust after their wives. That hit me hard. Lust is a selfish desire. Passion / Eros is a sharing one.

In your posts you cry out that you aren’t a saint and can’t live like one. Maybe you will fail from time to time, but isn’t sainthood what we are ALL called to? Doesn’t God promise us the Grace we need to achieve it if we persevere and get forgiven every time we fail? What I needed in a situation similar to yours (minus the pressure/stress of illness!) was to realize that the problem was my lustfulness. That attitude on my part created the stress/pressure on my wife, which made her less likely to be turned on on eligible days! By repenting of that, our frequency didn’t necessarily go up that much, but now as often as not it is HER idea rather than her reluctant submission to my desires.