Miserable with NFP!

[graceandglory]

Have you personally spoken to all of the Catholics in your town/state/country about these intimate details of their lives to make such assumptions?

Most Catholics that I know follow the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

It’s a pretty well-known fact that most Catholics don’t follow the Church’s teaching in their sex life. They keep God separate from the rest of their lives.

It is just too foreign of a concept to trust God and His will for our sexuality and fertility. Self control and abstinence isn’t our favorite thing to practice.

That kind of hypocrisy kept me away from the Church for 20 years. When I realized that there will always be the tares growing alongside the wheat in the Church, (I figured that out as an evangelical), I was able to take a deep, and serious look at the Catholic Church.

 

[mamacita]

My last post was a simple response to those who worry about the ‘side effects’ of contraception. I replied that barrier methods have no side effects and are very reliable. i was commenting on methodology.

I understand the Catholic reasons against contraception.

**I reject them.

Most Christians reject them as well.

Most Catholics reject them also**.

That doesn’t make it right.

Also, incase you didn’t know, all Christian faiths were against ABC way back when (not sure of the exact year that it all changed for other Christian faiths ). And no, Catholics aren’t some fruitcakes that all end up w/ 10 kids due to NFP. Just to let you know that since most non-CAtholics seem to think that about NFP! One person is to blame for contraception: Margaret Sanger. That woman is the very reason why so many marriages have fallen apart over the past 50+ years.

My parents had 9 of us, by choice of course (no one forced them to) . Did they pay for our college? Hell no! But that’s okay because instead I have 8 siblings who I talk to/ see weekly and lots of nieces and nephews that are sooo much fun!! Family get togethers are an absolute BLAST!!
DH on the otherhand, his parents had the ‘perfect’ 3 boys and then got ‘fixed’ and yes, they are Catholic (her brother is even a priest and she still did it!!) but DH says all the time, he would have traded his ‘paid for by mommy and daddy college education’ for a few more siblings. He doesn’t see eye to eye w/ the ones he has either because thus far they have all followed down his parents path of lifestyle. So sad .

So just goes to show that SOME kids would rather have siblings than earthly possessions such as a first car paid for or college education.

By the way, we practice NFP and no, we are not miserable.

1234, we also donate a large amount of money to all different charities as well even though we have 4 kids to feed, clothe, and educate! We are also in the midst of “adopting” a child in a 3rd world country that we will be donating money to every month so that they can have basic needs such as food, medical care and education.

 

[mamacita]

It’s funny how so many people WANT/NEED God at certain times in their lives—death, illness, financial woes, etc. and yell from the rooftops for his help. However in the bedroom they lock HIM out!! ‘Oh no God, you can’t come in here, this is between him and I, not you!’

SO SAD!!

 

[newbetx]

Humanae Vitae has indeed caused great separation - and predicted many of the evils our world has borne witness to… .

Nice post! A good deal to digest and comprehend.

Yours, too, Mamacita!

 

[kage_ar]

It’s a pretty well-known fact that most Catholics don’t follow the Church’s teaching in their sex life. They keep God separate from the rest of their lives.

Still waiting on someone to back this up with some real statistics.

Statistics on practicing Catholics, Catholics who attend Mass every week - not C & E Catholics, not CINOs, actual Mr and Mrs Joe Pewsitter Catholics.

 

[Good_Daughter]

The barrier methods are very reliable and have no side effects.

You don’t have to use OC.

I think my “inner feminist” has always told me to avoid OC even when I had no qualms about contracepting!

I guess I never worried much about side effects for myself when I considered using a diaphragm (Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, but I thought the package insert mentioned an increased risk of UTI’s.). I just couldn’t reconcile product use with the possibility of creating a child with birth defects due to the presence of spermicide at conception. If contraceptive jelly wasn’t so necessary, I probably would’ve tried the diaphragm.

Incidentally, in Taking Charge of Your Fertility (a secular book on fertility awareness that promotes the use of barrier methods), Toni Weschler cites a 6% method failure and a 20% typical user failure for the diaphragm with jelly/foam. That wouldn’t be reliable enough for me. I’m glad now that I passed on the diaphragm, even from a birth control standpoint.

 

[catherineajt]

I think my “inner feminist” has always told me to avoid OC even when I had no qualms about contracepting!

I guess I never worried much about side effects for myself when I considered using a diaphragm (Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, but I thought the package insert mentioned an increased risk of UTI’s.). I just couldn’t reconcile product use with the possibility of creating a child with birth defects due to the presence of spermicide at conception. If contraceptive jelly wasn’t so necessary, I probably would’ve tried the diaphragm.

Incidentally, in Taking Charge of Your Fertility (a secular book on fertility awareness that promotes the use of barrier methods), Toni Weschler cites a 6% method failure and a 20% typical user failure for the diaphragm with jelly/foam. That wouldn’t be reliable enough for me. I’m glad now that I passed on the diaphragm, even from a birth control standpoint.

That is the BEST book on fertility awareness. I use that, plus a ClearPlan ovulation monitor, to keep track of my cycle. We haven’t had an “oops”, as they put it, in 9 years.

 

[rick43235]

More than half of all marriages today end in divorce. The rates of divorce among Catholics and protestants who practice ABC is the same as the rest of the world.

Statistics show that the divorce rate for Catholic married couples who don’t use ABC is 3%. Now how’s that for a reason not to contracept?

Not meaning to add to the increasing level of hostility in this thread, but I find myself doubting your 3% statistic. Do you have a source your could refer me to?

Thanks.

 

[newbetx]

Still waiting on someone to back this up with some real statistics.

Statistics on practicing Catholics, Catholics who attend Mass every week - not C & E Catholics, not CINOs, actual Mr and Mrs Joe Pewsitter Catholics.

Not sure if something that specific is available. I recall a reference that said about 2/3rds of American Catholics use contraception of some kind. From what I’ve heard/read, that seems reasonable but I’ll have to go dig for the reference from a previous thread.

 

[kage_ar]

Not sure if something that specific is available. I recall a reference that said about 2/3rds of American Catholics use contraception of some kind. From what I’ve heard/read, that seems reasonable but I’ll have to go dig for the reference from a previous thread.

I’ve seen that too, the problem is it seems to be based on any person who checks the “catholic” box on a poll. Nothing about if they actually practice.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I posted a summary about how a non-Catholic approaches family planning, using ‘artificial’ contraception, much easier, more reliable, safer and with much more predictable outcomes.

You posted a summary about how you approach family planning. Some non-Catholics (including some non-religious) reject popular contraceptives and use NFP as birth control. You can say “most” sometimes but it’s rarely accurate to say “all”.

Non-Catholics may choose to plan their families the same way as devout Catholics, even if their reasons are different. Realistically, some (probably many) Catholics approach family planning using “artificial” contraception, believing it to be much easier, more reliable, safer and with much more predictable outcomes. At the same time, some non-Catholics approach family planning using NFP, believeing it to be much easier, more reliable, safer and with much more predictable outcomes.

This issue is hardly cut and dry along Catholic lines. My agnostic brother-in-law introduced me to Taking Charge of Your Fertility. It was an interesting conversation.

 

[agapewolf]

I heard a talk given by a priest once, he cited this study. I wrote the statistics down.

Im sorry, I do not have the source. It was a study done in Wisconsin. The talk I heard was given in 2001 in K.C.

Divorce rates:

50% in general
33% married in the church
3% married in the church, use NFP
1% married in the church, use NFP, and go to mass
.09% (yes that is POINT ZERO NINE PERCENT) those couples that marry in the church, use NFP, go to Mass, and pray at home together divorce.

Janet Smith gives a $1000 guarantee to keep your marriage together if you follow her rules. She’s never had to pay out:

-Do not live or sleep together before marriage. If you have, wait 2 years before marriage.

-Use NFP

-Go to Mass and pray together

-Tithe

That puts God, sex, and money in the right priorities.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I posted several times at the beginning of this thread and have debated the wisdom of returning to it.

sigh

I find it interesting that the main focus has become what is easier and more reliable and makes the person/couple happier and what everyone else is doing.

Are these the true hallmarks of how a christian should decide matters? Especially something as important as children and marriage?

Once again there’s so many “but” clauses.

Yes, Lord, I’ll follow you - BUT only if:

it’s affordable
it’s not stressful
it’s on my schedule
it’s fits my dream
it’s got a reliable clinical result
it makes me happy anyways
and so forth ad nauseum

If following such a philosophy were the right thing to do, there would be no saints or martyrs!

We are told both in scripture and by the Church that we must conform our will to His will for us. God gives us free will to chose Him or not, but God does not bend to our will when we reject His plan for us.

By all means, hypocrits abound in ANY place. One might as well not be christian at all if they are going to judge the worthiness of the faith on those who don’t follow it as they should! Rather we choose to be faithful to God and His Church and His Truth. However painful and inconvienent that may be to practice. However often our fellow christian and even ourselves may stumble along the way.

People have the freewill to choose wrongly. And most have chosen to do so ever since the apple was biten. That doesn’t make it right or okay. It just makes it a sad statement about humanity and glorious statement of God’s forgiving grace for those that turn to Him.

The only time people get angry at God’s plan for them, is when they don’t want to obey Him. It’s as simple as that. Jonah was angry about being called to Nineva. Nearly every apostle got angry at some point. The only thing their anger has in common is they were all angry about what God wanted them to do and his refusal to conform to their wants. We are all truely like children stomping our feet to play or have candy when it comes to obeying God as we should.

So be angry about NFP if you want.
Pump your body full of chemicals, or devices, or cut pieces up and/or off if you want.
You have the freewill to do so.
It might even make you happy as could be.
That doesn’t mean it’s following God.
Happy sinners are a dime a dozen.

**As for me and my house, I think it’s worth more to follow God on this. He has yet to disappoint me. And no, that does not mean it’s easy for me either. But I figure if I’m going to venture to hell and back at times on this earth, I’d like to do it with Christ at my side. **

 

[mamacita]

I posted several times at the beginning of this thread and have debated the wisdom of returning to it.

sigh

I find it interesting that the main focus has become what is easier and more reliable and makes the person/couple happier and what everyone else is doing.

Are these the true hallmarks of how a christian should decide matters? Especially something as important as children and marriage?

Once again there’s so many “but” clauses.

Yes, Lord, I’ll follow you - BUT only if:

it’s affordable
it’s not stressful
it’s on my schedule
it’s fits my dream
it’s got a reliable clinical result
it makes me happy anyways
and so forth ad nauseum

If following such a philosophy were the right thing to do, there would be no saints or martyrs!

We are told both in scripture and by the Church that we must conform our will to His will for us. God gives us free will to chose Him or not, but God does not bend to our will when we reject His plan for us.

By all means, hypocrits abound in ANY place. One might as well not be christian at all if they are going to judge the worthiness of the faith on those who don’t follow it as they should! Rather we choose to be faithful to God and His Church and His Truth. However painful and inconvienent that may be to practice. However often our fellow christian and even ourselves may stumble along the way.

People have the freewill to choose wrongly. And most have chosen to do so ever since the apple was biten. That doesn’t make it right or okay. It just makes it a sad statement about humanity and glorious statement of God’s forgiving grace for those that turn to Him.

The only time people get angry at God’s plan for them, is when they don’t want to obey Him. It’s as simple as that. Jonah was angry about being called to Nineva. Nearly every apostle got angry at some point. The only thing their anger has in common is they were all angry about what God wanted them to do and his refusal to conform to their wants. We are all truely like children stomping our feet to play or have candy when it comes to obeying God as we should.

So be angry about NFP if you want.
Pump your body full of chemicals, or devices, or cut pieces up and/or off if you want.
You have the freewill to do so.
It might even make you happy as could be.
That doesn’t mean it’s following God.
Happy sinners are a dime a dozen.

**As for me and my house, I think it’s worth more to follow God on this. He has yet to disappoint me. And no, that does not mean it’s easy for me either. But I figure if I’m going to venture to hell and back at times on this earth, I’d like to do it with Christ at my side. **

:clapping: :yup: :clapping: :bowdown2:

(by the way, thanks for returning to the thread! You stated this SO WELL!! )

 

[1234]

By the way, we practice NFP and no, we are not miserable.

1234, we also donate a large amount of money to all different charities as well even though we have 4 kids to feed, clothe, and educate! We are also in the midst of “adopting” a child in a 3rd world country that we will be donating money to every month so that they can have basic needs such as food, medical care and education.

Good show.

I have done this for years thru PlanUSA and also Tibetan organizations, ‘adopting’ children, and old lady, and even a nun!(Tibetan Buddhist nun).

I am sure that not all NFP’ers are miserable. but the one who started this thread and others who have contributed to it apparently are.

 

[newbetx]

Still waiting on someone to back this up with some real statistics.

Statistics on practicing Catholics, Catholics who attend Mass every week - not C & E Catholics, not CINOs, actual Mr and Mrs Joe Pewsitter Catholics.

Not exactly “it” but a start.
harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=608

And you can be assured that if this many “Catholics” think it’s OK, then many of those that actually go to Mass weekly do to.

Now here’s the disturbing part;
catholicsforchoice.org/topics/prevention/documents/1998amatterofconsciece.pdf

Basically, TOB has an uphill battle.

 

[1234]

I think my “inner feminist” has always told me to avoid OC even when I had no qualms about contracepting!

I guess I never worried much about side effects for myself when I considered using a diaphragm (Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, but I thought the package insert mentioned an increased risk of UTI’s.). I just couldn’t reconcile product use with the possibility of creating a child with birth defects due to the presence of spermicide at conception. If contraceptive jelly wasn’t so necessary, I probably would’ve tried the diaphragm.

Incidentally, in Taking Charge of Your Fertility (a secular book on fertility awareness that promotes the use of barrier methods), Toni Weschler cites a 6% method failure and a 20% typical user failure for the diaphragm with jelly/foam. That wouldn’t be reliable enough for me. I’m glad now that I passed on the diaphragm, even from a birth control standpoint.

There is no scientific justification for any of this.

The purported relationship between spermicides and birth defects was debunked in the late 1980’s.

general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/long/1987/828/3

–quoting among other things, the New England Journal of Medicine, the most prestigious journal in the United States.

Re diaphragm reliability, the failure rate is 6%, that is, pregnancy in 6 women out of 100 women using it* for a year,* and is most reliable in educated women who have been trained in its use. The spontaneous pregnancy rate in the same group would be 85%. Any woman trained in palpating the cervix in NFP would have no trouble in learning how to insert a diaphragm.

ref: aafp.org/afp/20040101/97.html American Family Physician

 

[agapewolf]

There is no scientific justification for any of this.

The purported relationship between spermicides and birth defects was debunked in the late 1980’s.

general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/long/1987/828/3

–quoting among other things, the New England Journal of Medicine, the most prestigious journal in the United States.

Re diaphragm reliability, the failure rate is 6%, that is, pregnancy in 6 women out of 100 women using it* for a year,* and is most reliable in educated women who have been trained in its use. The spontaneous pregnancy rate in the same group would be 85%. Any woman trained in palpating the cervix in NFP would have no trouble in learning how to insert a diaphragm.

ref: aafp.org/afp/20040101/97.html American Family Physician

and here’s the problem with any statistics regarding effectiveness of ABC…

how many women would have conceived a child if not using it? how many had fertility issues to begin with? Women are only ovulating about 1 day a month, and conditions allow for a few of those days for the sperm to hang around. so, honestly, we are looking about 25 days that the women wouldn’t have gotten pregnant anyway.

My point is: if 6% got pregnant, those could have possibly been the only ones ovulating at that time. Which means the diaphragm didnt’ work at all. It only counts in preventing pregnancy if pregnancy could have occurred in the first place.

 

[1234]

:clapping: :yup: :clapping: :bowdown2:

(by the way, thanks for returning to the thread! You stated this SO WELL!! )

Why do you assume that those who oppose the RC church’s stance are lazy secular materialists?

We oppose the stance because we feel that the RC church is wrong and that it is dangerously wrong.

We feel that the control of human population is vital not only to the health of this planet but to its very survival and that of the human race.

You think that you are the only ‘principled’ person or group in the world because of your position; you are not.

Environmentalists, like me, do a great deal that is difficult and expensive and uncomfortable to create a better world. Our house is cold in winter, hot in summer. We pay 25% more for electricity powered by wind; we buy expensive local organic food, and will buy an expensive hybrid car the next time around. We don’t ‘shop’, travel (much), buy stuff; what we do buy is usually used. We live far below our means. Our credo is reduce, reuse, recycle. We also give a lot of money to environmental groups and charities which will help pull people, mainly women, out of poverty to a better life. Education of women, along with sex education and contraception, has been shown to decrease their birth rates, poverty and abortion.

You can support your stance all you want, but the vast majority of people in the world and of the RCC do not support you. The RCC’s stance threatens the stability of the world’s population and many couple’s happiness. Fortunately, couples and populations move on and find their own solutions.

 

[kage_ar]

Overpopulation - wow. There are people who still believe that?

Simple 5th grade math tells another story. The population of the world, 6.5 billion folks, could all be moved to the State of Texas and each person would have room to build a house.

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