Misguided Loyalties and the Military

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All war is ill-advised. All war is immoral. Period.
I can’t really agree with this. I think, for example, that it is a good thing that the Christian armada won the battle of Lepanto against the Ottoman Turks. Some people even say that prayer was effective in granting the victory.
 
I can’t really agree with this. I think, for example, that it is a good thing that the Christian armada won the battle of Lepanto against the Ottoman Turks. Some people even say that prayer was effective in granting the victory.
I recall seeing the first Movietone News films of the liberation of concentration camps at the end of WWII. It’s hard to believe that staying out of that war and letting Hitler win would be a good thing.
 
I can’t really agree with this. I think, for example, that it is a good thing that the Christian armada won the battle of Lepanto against the Ottoman Turks. Some people even say that prayer was effective in granting the victory.
Were the actions of the Turks in expanding their Empire good? Or evil?

Those actions are what caused the state of war. Not the actions of the Christians.
 
Were the actions of the Turks in expanding their Empire good? Or evil?

Those actions are what caused the state of war. Not the actions of the Christians.
I agree. I’m just saying that the Christian military response was a good and necessary thing. (And there were European Christians who protested involvement in that war too.) And as Vern pointed out, Allied involvment in WWII was, in my judgment, also a necessary action.
 
I agree. I’m just saying that the Christian military response was a good and necessary thing. (And there were European Christians who protested involvement in that war too.) And as Vern pointed out, Allied involvment in WWII was, in my judgment, also a necessary action.
My point was that the state of war, the condition of war is immoral. Not a country’s participation in a military action, as that military action, in of itself, may be done to support the re-establishment of justice.
All war is ill-advised. All war is immoral. Period.

However, the question comes up with where that immorality comes. Who was ill-advised in making war?
(emphasis added)

As to Vern’s point, one thing to consider is this: had the victorious allies been more charitable in their treatment of the Germans after WWI, the environment that allowed a Hitler to come to power may never have existed.
 
As to Vern’s point, one thing to consider is this: had the victorious allies been more charitable in their treatment of the Germans after WWI, the environment that allowed a Hitler to come to power may never have existed.
But what’s your point? The United States in 1944 could hardly use a way-back machine, return to 1917 and use its leverage to get an iron-clad agreement to abide by the 14 Points before entering WWI.
 
Nobody would disagree with that.

But this nation would not exist but for the men who sacrificed their lives to bring it about.
And this nations army wouldn’t exist without the nation that raises it
It is a mutual relationship
Neither exists in a vacuum
And in that chicken-egg relationship I would argue that the nation existed before the army it raised.
Do you know why there’s a city in Ohio named “Cincinnati?”
Poorly educated hedonists who thought “sin” started with a “C”? 😉

Yes I know the origin of the name.
But remember that both Rome and Virginia existed before Cincinnatus and Washington
And they both returned to their farms… not to the barracks.
 
And this nations army wouldn’t exist without the nation that raises it
It is a mutual relationship
Neither exists in a vacuum
And in that chicken-egg relationship I would argue that the nation existed before the army it raised.
Actually, the Army existed before the nation. The Army came into existance in 1775, the nation in 1776.
Poorly educated hedonists who thought “sin” started with a “C”? 😉

Yes I know the origin of the name.
But remember that both Rome and Virginia existed before Cincinnatus and Washington
And they both returned to their farms… not to the barracks.
Which is the point – the United States had no Cromwell. Washington** could** have been a king. The Army could have ruled the country – but chose the better way.
 
But what’s your point? The United States in 1944 could hardly use a way-back machine, return to 1917 and use its leverage to get an iron-clad agreement to abide by the 14 Points before entering WWI.
I certainly hope you’ve read my posts in this thread sufficiently to recognize that I am not criticizing our (the U.S.) entry into the war. I am not.

The point that I am criticizing is the abstraction of the state of war, in of itself. The existence of war, without regard for any of the States involved, is fundamentally disordered. A State can either be responsible for causing this disorder or a State can work to rectify the disordered condition.
 
ll war is ill-advised. All war is immoral. Period.
I would agree that most war is immoral. However, I would argue that we have the right to restrain evil and to defend the defenseless, both as individuals and corporately.

Unfortunately, the line between restraining evil and protecting a standard of living is sometimes blurred.
 
I certainly hope you’ve read my posts in this thread sufficiently to recognize that I am not criticizing our (the U.S.) entry into the war. I am not.

The point that I am criticizing is the abstraction of the state of war, in of itself. The existence of war, without regard for any of the States involved, is fundamentally disordered. A State can either be responsible for causing this disorder or a State can work to rectify the disordered condition.
Correct – but to say “disordered” is one thing, and “immoral” is another. “War” is an abstraction. It is the waring parties which must receive the blame or credit – depending on their actions.
 
I’ve never heard anyone on talk radio claim that the military gives us our rights or our freedom. However, they correctly state that the military protects our rights and our freedoms. That is their primary purpose. They put their lives on the line when it is necessary.

I thank those in uniform for their self-sacrifice on our behalf. Even if they were drafted or chose to serve for school benefits, they still put their lives on the line.
I’d agrea with that more or less
 
I would not say that war is, in and of itself, immoral.

Amoral…yes, but not immoral. Where immorality enters into war is in the way that it is waged. Warfare that deliberately targets innocent lives is immoral, it is, in fact, nothing short of murder. Soldiers killing enemy combatants…that is not immoral.

Killing should never be glorified, nor should one rejoice overmuch because of the deaths of one’s enemies.

To kill someone is to make them a part of you…for they will be with you evermore.

Mik
 
My point was that the state of war, the condition of war is immoral. Not a country’s participation in a military action, as that military action, in of itself, may be done to support the re-establishment of justice.
(emphasis added)

As to Vern’s point, one thing to consider is this: had the victorious allies been more charitable in their treatment of the Germans after WWI, the environment that allowed a Hitler to come to power may never have existed.
A state of war results in evils being done, but perhaps it is no more immoral than what happens in a state of" peace." The policeman who does his rounds has no delusion of the quiet life, nor does the doctor in the energency room who takes in victims every night. We say much. but do little, about the endless domestic quabbles in homes rich and poor, the women who frequent abortion clincs, the thousands who fill the offices of mental therapists and now, more rarely, the confesionals of rhe Church. Even when we are at “peace,” the devil roams around seeking whom he would devour. We long for quiet, but we do not have it in our very souls, and the disquiet breaks out, in ever widening circles, until it finally reaches the stage we call “war.”
 
Before condemning all or even most, military actions as evil, I would ask you to consider a couple of examples:
  • Would it be immoral to defend your country against a foreign invader? yes. immoral means could be used in doing so, but is the end inmoral?
  • Would it be immoral to defend a State that requested our assistance in its defense against an invasion?
  • Would it be immoral to stop two warring tribes in a civil war? (Like Rwanda)
  • and so on.
I agree with you that war is never good. But sometimes in this world, the use of a militay is warranted to establish justice in the cause of peace. would that it were not necessary. But unfortunately, not all of the world’s leaders have an attitude that would allow for a general stand-down.

There will come a day that all of the world’s swords can be beaten into plowshares…and that the world will know war no more.

But that day is not now. And that day will take divine intervention, and that hasn’t happened yet. It is good to pursue peace. It is good to see results. But I do not expect 100% until God puts it right. Until then, a military is a needed instrument for national leaders to have in the support of peace.
I want to clarify that I am certainly not a pacifist, and that sometimes wars are required (I think). But to address your three ‘would it be immorals’ above, I would answer that war would not necessarily be immoral in those circumstance, and even say it would probably not be immoral. But the topic is interesting because it is so much more complicated than that.

To me these questions are like my kids the night before a big assignment is due justifying staying up all night, writing the minimum length, using all internet sources, and generally just getting by. They say things like “would you rather I quote wikipedia, or just make stuff up”? And, “I have to miss soccer practice, this paper is due tomorrow. Is making practice more important than this paper?” Every parent knows that the real issue is not that the child is now forced to choose between two unsavory choices, but that the child let himself be forced into that position. If the child really cared about writing a good paper, or being there for his teammates, he wouldn’t have put himself in this position. (To be clear, I am not suggesting that your questions are childish, they are not. I am suggesting that national decision makers can be childish, and often expect us to think in childish ways, as well.)

While that is a very simplistic analogy that does not always hold, I think that if world leaders really cared about avoiding the evils of warfare they wouldn’t often find themselves in a position to have to use war. The real decision to go to war is often made not on the eve of war, but months or years earlier when positions are taken, and lines are drawn, or even when bad situations are neglected and allowed to fester. Clausewitz famously described war as continuation of politics by other means; its morality cannot be tested by the start of hostilities, one has to look back at the previous means used to arrive at that point.

I don’t disagree with you; we are not yet living in the Kingdom and human strife is with us. But I think we are called to try, however futile the effort, to draw nearer to the Kingdom even in this life by living as best we can in accord with its principles. We need a military while we go there, but we shouldn’t let our leaders believe that just because they have the best warmaking capability in the history of man, that they should turn to it in every crisis.

That brings to mind some thoughts I have on the morality of maintaining the best warmaking capability in the history of man even in times of relative peace. Having prodded you with that thought, I have to return to work and will have to comment more later.
 
The military is much like a firearm. It is neither good nor bad. The military is a good thing when it is used to defend the nation. Unfortunately, because of the moral turpitude of our politicians, the military has been misused over the last several years.

The military was used to invade Iraq, a nation that never attacked us, and without a Declaration of War, as required by the Constitution. And besides all of that, the reason given at the time was a lie. And even if Iraq, a sovereign nation had these weapons, where do we get the authority to determine that they are not allowed to have them? Because we’re bigger than them?

I am an Iraq veteran, and a retired Master Sergeant. For this reason, I believe that anyone in the military needs to take an interest in politics. Otherwise, we become the equivalent of mercenaries, attacking whomever out master send us to kill.

Is it any wonder that Ron Paul gets more contributions from the military than all the other candidates? The military exists to defend our nation, not to steal oil from Iraq, and give it to the big oil companies. That’s right. Go on line and look up the Iraqi Oil Bill. The Administration is pressuring the Iraqi government into turning over 91% of its oil to the big oil companies.
 
The military is much like a firearm. It is neither good nor bad. The military is a good thing when it is used to defend the nation. Unfortunately, because of the moral turpitude of our politicians, the military has been misused over the last several years.
Agreed
The military was used to invade Iraq, a nation that never attacked us, and without a Declaration of War, as required by the Constitution.
Article I Section 8 of the Constitution states:
The Congress shall have power:
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Congress abrogated that authority through the War Powers Act of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541 et seq). In 1541(c), Congress gives the President the following rights:
(c) Presidential executive power as Commander-in-Chief; limitation
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.
Note item 2, above. Congress has stated that they no longer need to make a formal declaration of war. They need only to make a specific statutory authorization (a far lower threshold).

As it stands, each military action entered in by the U.S. since the passage of the War Powers Act in 1973 has had specific military authorization. The attacks against Afghanistan were authorized by the 107th Congress, S.J. 23., while the actions in Iraq were authorized by the 107th Congress, H.J. Res. 114. Both bills passed overwhelmingly.

Is the War Powers process constitutional? Well, until the Supreme Court says otherwise, it seems that Congress is exercising its power under Article I Section 8 constitutionally (albeit in a wimpy way).
And besides all of that, the reason given at the time was a lie. And even if Iraq, a sovereign nation had these weapons, where do we get the authority to determine that they are not allowed to have them? Because we’re bigger than them?
(commenting on your bolded text) That has seemed to be the opinion of three administrations of both parties, as well as the opinion of the majority of the members of Congress. But I think that you ask a very, very good question. What right do we have to say if another sovereign State has the weapons it chooses to defend itself?
I am an Iraq veteran, and a retired Master Sergeant.
Congratulations on your retirement. I retired before the current operation.
For this reason, I believe that anyone in the military needs to take an interest in politics.
Within the realm of propriety, I agree with you. Although that interest in politics shouldn’t cause a person to interfere with their status as a soldier/sailor/airman.
Otherwise, we become the equivalent of mercenaries, attacking whomever out master send us to kill.
You know, as well as I do, that a soldier can’t choose his war. He can choose whether to be in the service or not be in the service, but after making that choice, he is at the disposal of his chain of command. He can, if he has a change in heart, file as a Conscientious Objector (CO), but that is if he becomes opposed to ALL war, not a particular war.
Is it any wonder that Ron Paul gets more contributions from the military than all the other candidates?
Do you have a source for that statement? You’re not the first one I’ve heard make that statement, but I have never seen any hard proof of that statement, nor have I been able to locate it on the 'Net. (The only way I could see it one way or the other is to download and crunch the FEC database, and I don’t have the time to do that)
The military exists to defend our nation, not to steal oil from Iraq, and give it to the big oil companies. That’s right. Go on line and look up the Iraqi Oil Bill. The Administration is pressuring the Iraqi government into turning over 91% of its oil to the big oil companies.
I did. The Iraqi Government’s “Oil Bill” of 2007 states that all the oil and gas in Iraq belong to the Iraqis and that they are creating a state-owned entity, the Iraqi National Oil Company (INOC), to manage it. The Bill says nothing about turning over oil to the “big oil companies.” So, again, you need to prove your allegation(s), not just state them and expect people to accept them.

Bottom line is that I am sure you had a hard time during your tour(s) in Iraq and a I feel for you and will pray for you.
 
"Note item 2, above. Congress has stated that they no longer need to make a formal declaration of war. They need only to make a specific statutory authorization (a far lower threshold).

As it stands, each military action entered in by the U.S. since the passage of the War Powers Act in 1973 has had specific military authorization. The attacks against Afghanistan were authorized by the 107th Congress, S.J. 23., while the actions in Iraq were authorized by the 107th Congress, H.J. Res. 114. Both bills passed overwhelmingly.

Is the War Powers process constitutional? Well, until the Supreme Court says otherwise, it seems that Congress is exercising its power under Article I Section 8 constitutionally (albeit in a wimpy way)."

Congress does not have the power to delegate the authority to go to war to the president. The Constitution is very clear, only Congress can declare war. By the same token, Congress has the power to COIN money. It does not have the power to create a central bank (Federal Reserve) to issue debt notes. Also, the Constitution stipulates that only gold and silver shall be lawful tender.

Almost all of the problems we face today are a result of our politicians refusing to follow the Constitution.

I shall look for the information about Ron Paul receiving more money from the military, and the Iraqi Oil Bill.

I’ll be baaaaaaack.
 
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