T
thecoach
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And you have not followed a discussion very well. No matter, stay asleep.
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D
dosdog
Guest
You asked for proof you got it-And you have not followed a discussion very well. No matter, stay asleep.
T
thecoach
Guest
Friend, you gave NO proof specific to Jesus and the Apostles. using the Septuagint, THAT is the point. You may think you did, I dont agree, plain and simple.You asked for proof you got it-
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dosdog
Guest
The early church was founded by Hellenistic Jews; naturally, they used the Septuagint. There are passages in the gospels and epistles where Jesus and Paul quote from the Septuagint: 300 of 350 quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. So while the Jews may have settled on the Palestinian canon by the early first century, the Christian church did not. apostate.com/2.0/english-bible-versionsFriend, you gave NO proof specific to Jesus and the Apostles. using the Septuagint, THAT is the point. You may think you did, I dont agree, plain and simple.
You read anything - is your left click on your mouse broke?
T
thecoach
Guest
Sooo, Jesus and the Apostles were Hellenistic Jews?The early church was founded by Hellenistic Jews; naturally, they used the Septuagint. There are passages in the gospels and epistles where Jesus and Paul quote from the Septuagint: 300 of 350 quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. So while the Jews may have settled on the Palestinian canon by the early first century, the Christian church did not. apostate.com/2.0/english-bible-versions
wcg.org/lit/bible/acts/acts6.htm
I dont think so.
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dosdog
Guest
I am done - do your own reasearchSooo, Jesus and the Apostles were Hellenistic Jews?
wcg.org/lit/bible/acts/acts6.htm
I dont think so.
T
thecoach
Guest
I just provided it…and I guess you cannot refute it, so as I said, stay asleep. You think by insisting you make something so?I am done - do your own reasearch
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dosdog
Guest
Persecution Strikes the ChurchI just provided it…and I guess you cannot refute it, so as I said, stay asleep. You think by insisting you make something so?
ACTS 5:16 - 8:3
wcg.org/lit/bible/acts/acts6.htm
J
JRKH
Guest
If you’d like Proof of Jesus and the Apostles AND the Early Church Fathers referencing the deuterocanonicals, take a look HEREFriend, you gave NO proof specific to Jesus and the Apostles. using the Septuagint, THAT is the point. You may think you did, I dont agree, plain and simple.
Peace
James
S
st_lucy
Guest
Dosdog, Thank you for all you have posted. This is subject that has really brought me to really understand my faith and brought me back to the CC. I just don’t understand how a person who considers himself a Christian would fall for taking books out of the bible that were taken out by a group of people about 70 years after Jesus. Jesus himself read and quoted from the very same books that were taken out. This I think comes down to pride and refusal to admit wrong. It is all very sad. There are though many Protestants who are have seen this and now read the whole bible and not the bible that was butchered.
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dosdog
Guest
at the juncture of three important trade routes, it was a large and sophisticated city when Christianity began. The population at the time has been estimated as perhaps a half million, and not less than three-fifths of that amount; although it was a Greek speaking Hellenistic city, there were large numbers of every kind of Near-Eastern nationality, and just as many different kinds of religions. There was also a large Jewish community
The Christian message came early to Antioch; after the martyrdom of Stephen in Jerusalem about 35 A.D., many Christians left the city to go to Cyprus, to Phoenicia (Lebanon), and Antioch. The apostle Barnabas was in Antioch in A.D. 38, and he brought the apostle Paul from Tarsus to help him. They stayed in Antioch a year, having made many converts. According to one of the oldest and strongest of traditions, St. Peter was the actual founder of the Christian church in Antioch,
stmichaelsgeneva.org/Church%20at%20Antioch.htm
J
JRKH
Guest
I guess we would have to discuss that with them sometime. As for this discussion now, The Catholic Bible held the deutero’s for 1000 years, until the reformation. How do we know this? Because Martin Luther removed them.Then great for you, but since you are not the end all authority, it is STILL open to debate. Ethiopian Christians can say the same of you as to why your Bible doesnt include Jubilees.
Now consider this. The Bible canon was established by councils of bishops and confirmed several times by several councils of bishops over time.
The Books were removed by a single man. So far as I know there was no council of learned men of the Protestant Reformation who met to discuss and determine the validity of the books.
Peace
James
D
dosdog
Guest
Prove they did not use the Septuagint
Perhaps one of the most important instances of the New Testament writers’ use of the Septuagint is Matthew 1.23, in which the Gospel writer quotes Isaiah 7.14. The Hebrew word almah, argued by some in our day to indicate a young woman of marriageable age but one not necessarily a virgin, is translated in the Septuagint as parthenos. This Greek word means virgin, indicating that the Jewish translators before the time of Christ understood the prophecy correctly. Other Jews after the advent of the Christian era translated the word into Greek as neanis, ‘young woman’, in order to distance the prophecy from fulfilment in Jesus. Matthew quotes the Septuagint, applying it to Jesus.
Other New Testament writers also used the clear translation from the Septuagint in their writings. In Hebrews 1.6 is a quotation from Psalm 97.7. The Old Testament passage speaks of the “graven images”, “idols” and “gods”. The final word in Hebrew is elohim (gods); the Septuagint renders this aggeloi (angels). The book of Hebrews takes the Septuagint rendering and incorporates it, in which is urged that “all the angels of God” worship Jesus.
apostlesbible.com/esvws.htm
Care to continue Coach?
MARGINAL REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYHA DELETED
Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611
Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7:14
Mat 23:37 -2 Esdras 1
Mat 27:43 -Wisdom 2
Luke 6:31 -Tobit 4
Luke 14:13 -Tobit 4
John 10:22 -1 Maccabees 4
Rom 9:21 -Wisdom 15
Rom 11:34 -Wisdom 9
2 Cor 9:7 -Ecclesiasticus 35
Heb 1:3 -Wisdom 7
Heb 11:35 -2 Maccabees 7
Matthew 6 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.
Ecclesiasticus 7:14. Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good. 7:15. Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer.
Matthew 23 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?
2Esdr 1:30 I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.31 When ye offer unto me, I will turn my face from you: for your solemn feastdays, your new moons, and your circumcisions, have I forsaken. 32 I sent unto you my servants the prophets, whom ye have taken and slain, and torn their bodies in pieces, whose blood I will require of your hands, saith the Lord.
Luke 14 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind; 14 And thou shalt be blessed, because they have not wherewith to make thee recompense: for recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.
Tobias 4:7. Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee 8. According to thy ability be merciful.
scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM
one thing you can never find—anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi—is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection.(Heb. 11:35). If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament—in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.
The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, during the Maccabean persecution
Perhaps one of the most important instances of the New Testament writers’ use of the Septuagint is Matthew 1.23, in which the Gospel writer quotes Isaiah 7.14. The Hebrew word almah, argued by some in our day to indicate a young woman of marriageable age but one not necessarily a virgin, is translated in the Septuagint as parthenos. This Greek word means virgin, indicating that the Jewish translators before the time of Christ understood the prophecy correctly. Other Jews after the advent of the Christian era translated the word into Greek as neanis, ‘young woman’, in order to distance the prophecy from fulfilment in Jesus. Matthew quotes the Septuagint, applying it to Jesus.
Other New Testament writers also used the clear translation from the Septuagint in their writings. In Hebrews 1.6 is a quotation from Psalm 97.7. The Old Testament passage speaks of the “graven images”, “idols” and “gods”. The final word in Hebrew is elohim (gods); the Septuagint renders this aggeloi (angels). The book of Hebrews takes the Septuagint rendering and incorporates it, in which is urged that “all the angels of God” worship Jesus.
apostlesbible.com/esvws.htm
Care to continue Coach?
MARGINAL REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYHA DELETED
Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611
Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7:14
Mat 23:37 -2 Esdras 1
Mat 27:43 -Wisdom 2
Luke 6:31 -Tobit 4
Luke 14:13 -Tobit 4
John 10:22 -1 Maccabees 4
Rom 9:21 -Wisdom 15
Rom 11:34 -Wisdom 9
2 Cor 9:7 -Ecclesiasticus 35
Heb 1:3 -Wisdom 7
Heb 11:35 -2 Maccabees 7
Matthew 6 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.
Ecclesiasticus 7:14. Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good. 7:15. Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer.
Matthew 23 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?
2Esdr 1:30 I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.31 When ye offer unto me, I will turn my face from you: for your solemn feastdays, your new moons, and your circumcisions, have I forsaken. 32 I sent unto you my servants the prophets, whom ye have taken and slain, and torn their bodies in pieces, whose blood I will require of your hands, saith the Lord.
Luke 14 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind; 14 And thou shalt be blessed, because they have not wherewith to make thee recompense: for recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.
Tobias 4:7. Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee 8. According to thy ability be merciful.
scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM
one thing you can never find—anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi—is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection.(Heb. 11:35). If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament—in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.
The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, during the Maccabean persecution
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I really don’t see how using the Hebrew cannon is even an option as that it was not set till well after Christ and the Apostles. Now were as Christ may not have used the Septuagint they most certainly used the books that complied it ( perhaps a Hebrew or Aramaic translation). Next I do not know why books such as Enoch and Jubaliees were not included, but I have a feeling that it has something to do with the same reason not all new testament era writings were not include. I believe that the Protestants are in error with leaving these books out. but at this point in time how many read the entire bible with understanding now ? having more in there just means more left unread or misunderstood .
T
thecoach
Guest
If you dont know, then ask me, not someone else. And yes, I consider myself a Christian, and I resent how you worded your statement. Believe me, there are MANY who dont consider RC’s real Christians either, so its best for you to lay off the “mightier than thou” approach.Dosdog, Thank you for all you have posted. This is subject that has really brought me to really understand my faith and brought me back to the CC. I just don’t understand how a person who considers himself a Christian would fall for taking books out of the bible that were taken out by a group of people about 70 years after Jesus. Jesus himself read and quoted from the very same books that were taken out. This I think comes down to pride and refusal to admit wrong. It is all very sad. There are though many Protestants who are have seen this and now read the whole bible and not the bible that was butchered.
T
thecoach
Guest
Now THAT"S an interesting and logical point!I guess we would have to discuss that with them sometime. As for this discussion now, The Catholic Bible held the deutero’s for 1000 years, until the reformation. How do we know this? Because Martin Luther removed them.
Now consider this. The Bible canon was established by councils of bishops and confirmed several times by several councils of bishops over time.
The Books were removed by a single man. So far as I know there was no council of learned men of the Protestant Reformation who met to discuss and determine the validity of the books.
Peace
James
S
st_lucy
Guest
Well if that is not calling the tea kettle black!If you dont know, then ask me, not someone else. And yes, I consider myself a Christian, and I resent how you worded your statement. Believe me, there are MANY who dont consider RC’s real Christians either, so its best for you to lay off the “mightier than thou” approach.
I did not state my statement to you because you are very obviously not interested in learning and I do not have time in my life to waste my time in someone who is too proud to read a little history.
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dosdog
Guest
Ignore Him - shake the dust - he goplay with himalone -Well if that is not calling the tea kettle black!
I did not state my statement to you because you are very obviously not interested in learning and I do not have time in my life to waste my time in someone who is too proud to read a little history.
Apprieciate the comment
DD
T
thecoach
Guest
Since you have no idea what I have read, then by all means move on along. You seem upset because I called you on what you stated.Well if that is not calling the tea kettle black!
I did not state my statement to you because you are very obviously not interested in learning and I do not have time in my life to waste my time in someone who is too proud to read a little history.
T
thecoach
Guest
And I actually thought there may have been hope for you, but you seem blinded by your own mis-perceptions. You refuse to follow a conversation and stay on point, why? You refuse to refute something I posted and just started responding with dodges, why?Ignore Him - shake the dust - he goplay with himalone -
Apprieciate the comment
DD
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