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:clapping: :clapping:
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rinnie
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I guess what my point of this whole thing is to learn what the good sounding reasoning was that the protestant faith had, to agree with Luther taking the books out. Thats really what my question was. The only reason i asked is im thinking that the Holy Bible the first one was Catholic. We all agree on that, and it was of course inspired by the Holy Spirit on what was to go in and out. That was the beginning, now my question really is how do protestants account for authority, Catholics can account by authority by the Holy Spirit, we have proof that it was handed down. Now yes people can say we are lying, but we didnt say it Jesus did. He gave the power to the apostles. . So we can say we believe that authority was handed down to the church from Jesus. Now how can luther have this authority to take them out. Thats all im asking? Now to cause trouble or fights i just cant comprehend how they can ignore that one man who was not inspired by the Holy Spirit did this and they follow him. Because it is him they are following, because he was the one who said, hey i know better than the Popes, Bishops and Priests, who God handed down the Holy Spirit to thru Holy ORders, and follow me. Or am I missing something or seeing it wrong. Thats all im asking. And as far as missing the point on purgatory, yes that is a big deal. When it comes to the end of our life in this world, you also will see what a big deal it becomes. And why the Holy Spirit who inspired the Catholic Bible, put that book in. And why the Catholics will not add or subtract from that bible, because again we are told not to, through the same Holy Spirit who gave inspiration to write them.
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rinnie
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I guess another way of expressing what im asking is this, The Pope all i hear he is just a Man, A MAN, How can you let a man who is human tell you what to do. Well lets go back what did Jesus do he breathed on the Apostles and said i give you the POWER lets say, but did he not, he said i give you what my Father has given me. Go out and make disciples of all nations. Now back up if Jesus said he gave them the Power of the Holy Spirit, did he lie, well if you say that the apostles didnt have the authority to pass on what Jesus did, Yes you are saying Jesus lied to us. So there is my proof, Jesus passed it on to them, not us them, and told them to pick and choose. Now Luther a Man also where is his right to take out books, see what i mean and what im asking, thats all. How can protestants tell Catholics dont listen to the Pope when we have proof, and turn around a follow luther, now you show me proof now. Where in the bible does it say a man will come and change everything i have left you. yes it does say that, and it also say stay away from anyone who takes you away from tradition,and teachings of your early church, The Catholic Church. Now again how can you follow this man luther, and why would you? And fight Catholics for being true to our tradition, when the bible tells us to. And why do we not only have the bible with all the books we have the only Church will the scripture, oral teachings and written.
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Benadam
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Rinnie, I think Protestants would have to admit that there is no one teaching body on earth that possesses the True Faith. That the divine authority Jesus passed on to the community that surrounded Him lacked the qualities attached to eternal realities therefore can’t be divine.
!That the community that Jesus started no longer has visible boundaries on earth. In short, to me Protestants have to admit that the promises of Christ were broken.
!That the community that Jesus started no longer has visible boundaries on earth. In short, to me Protestants have to admit that the promises of Christ were broken.
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JRKH
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Rinnie,
It is very hard to try to express the “Protestant view” because there really isn’t one view that can be called common across all protestant faiths. The only common thread in protestantism is the rejection of the authority of the Church. Now some of the older protestant denominations recognize the early Church but believe that the Catholic Church went Apostate at some point early on and that the Protestant leaders restored the true church. Other denominations, particularly newer ones tend to reject even the early Church and believe some rather strange and largely unsubstantiated alternate history scenerios.
When it comes right down to it though, the core issue is one of authority. Protestants are taught to reject the Authority of the Catholic Church and accept the Holy Bible as their sole rule of faith. This has led to any number of errors including the formation of thousands of fractured denominations. The amazing thing to me is that, while claiming the Same Holy Bible and the guidance of the Same Holy Spirit, there can be so many different and differing groups. Unfortunately many of these groups, even though they must see that this view of Sola Scriptura has proven to be untenable by the continual fracturing of the protestant denominations, they tenatiously cling to the one thing that they can all agree on - - That the Catholic Church is wrong.
The Protestant Reformers did have some legitimate complaints at the beginning. They took a radical cure for these ills. A cure that has proven to be much more damaging to the Body of Christ than the origional sickness.
Pardon my rant.
peace
James
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rinnie
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Then what you are saying is that they are saying Jesus is a liar? Because Jesus promised that would not happen, MY Church will Prevail, its still here. would that not be again PROOF. Yes, been through many trials, things that would break any Church, but not Gods Church, Who exposed the truth about the bad Priests, our own Pope, he said no dont hide it, get rid of them, and tell the truth, Because the CC is about the truth, But didnt Judas give into the devil too. Who was closser to Jesus at one time than Judas he betrayed Jesus, just like alot of Priests, but what about the other Apostles, just like the other Priests, they are still here. The Good ones. they are still here today. Doing GOds work. Now getting back to your last sentence, If Jesus lied to us, and they believe that why even read the bible. Would that not make it a pack of lies too. See, i cant comprehend their point of view, im trying to be fair but i cant. They push the bible left and right, but then take out what they dont like, they again who are they following? luther I just dont get it.
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Benadam
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Well, I know they don’t believe Jesus lied. But in rejecting the Catholic Church they reject the concrete physical ‘fleshly’ aspect of the gifts Jesus left here on earth by virtue of being God and man. It’s those physical things that His promises, to us, are anchored to. Those same promises have a spiritualized meaning to protestants. To us, since we recognize the physicality as well as the spirituality of Jesus the promises share in the hypostatic union.
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rinnie
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But in rejecting the Catholic Church would they in turn be rejecting the Christ for Jesus left the church for us, He promised he would be there, the Catholic Church and Jesus are one, they cant be separated. Like bride and a bridegroom they become one in Christ. The Church and Christ are one, again thats what he promised us. But thanks for trying to help me to understand, it just for 2 years now, i ask the same questions and never get an answer that makes sense. Hey have a wonderful Holiday, im going back to painting 80 today cant believe it. And to everyone on this Post protestant, Catholic, whatever have a wonderful and Blessed Day, enjoy your family if you have any,and if not just enjoy the beautiful day God gave us. You are all in my prayers.
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rinnie
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Oh almost forgot i must add this off post but GO PENS!
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Benadam
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Thank you, and also with you
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JRKH
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I sense your frustrations by reading your posts.
I share it because I am a History buff and so tend to view things in this way. If you want to convince me of the correctness of a position, particularly one based on the ancient writings contained in a particular book, I’d want to understand the “pedigree” of that book.
I’d like to try and address the undelined section above a bit further.
We need to try and understand where our protestant brethern are coming from. Assuming that these people have never been catholic, that they have raised and aculturated in the protestant world, we need to recocognize that they have never been exposed to the true fullness of Christian History. What they have been exposed to and taught is a slanted view of history and theology.
First and foremost, protestants take their starting point from the Bible and not from the Church, and by that I mean ANY church. In Protestant circles the belief is that the Bible Trumps the Church.
Naturally they use the Bible they grew up with and has always been presented to them as THE Bible. When they are confronted with the idea that there is a Bible out there with more books in it they can become very flustered. I know this for a fact because I’ve personally seen it.
Now because they have been trained with the KJV and told that this is the be-all and end-all of God’s Word, they jump to the conclusion that the Catholics “Added Books” and will jump through all sorts of hoops to try and explain it, but they really cannot. Why? Because history is not on their side. If they accept that History is correct, and the authority of the Bible rests on the Church which compiled it, they must accept that ML removed books from the Word of God. If they deny history and the authority of the Church they must by extention deny the inerrancy of the Bible itself.
History explains how the volume we call “The Holy Bible” came to be. We can only approach our seperated brethren in Love and try to help them see this history so that they will be willing to listen to what we have to say.
Peace
James
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allana
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I couldnt bear to read THIS post! Here is another fallen angel, who couldnt stand the magnitude of the glory of the Catholic Church that he had to leave…
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rinnie
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Thanks love but help me, show me how to do exactly what you said, I dont want to hurt them, or belittle then, I just want to help them get to the truth, get them thinking is all. Thats it, ask some questions too. thats all. I know I cant change them only the Power of the Holy Spirit can do that, But at least let them know what i know and then let them take off with it thats all. I dont want to fight or argue, Jesus said dont do that, dont hurt people help people thats all i want to do is say. think about it who is luther, what gave him the right thats all. Hey off post again but gotta go pens are on. Lets go pens.
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JRKH
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That is the trick isn’t it. To do this in a way that draws someone to the fullness of faith rather than push them away.
How you approach this is going to depend on who you are talking to, their personality and your relationship to them.
First of all I would suggest an approach that defuses any angry or defensive posturing. Don’t appear to be automatically attacking the Protestant canon of the Bible. Something along the lines of, “Our Bibles have different numbers of Books in them. Why do think that is?” If they have an answer to that you can adjust your conversation to that answer by addressing some of the historical evidence, including quotes from ML himself regarding the Protestants getting the bible from the Catholic Church. (someone here has this quote on their signature.)
The person may just blow you off at which point your best bet is to just drop it because they really aren’t ready to hear it.
If the person expresses some interest in this sort of historical information, then you can explain more of how the bible canon developed over the early centuries. How a whole series of councils, groups of learned and holy men, affirmed and reaffirmed the Canon which included the “missing books”.
So, if a person accepts that these councils were guided by the Holy Spirit then we must assume the Holy Spirit made sure they got the canon right in the first place. If a person rejects the canon as set by these early councils, it calls into question EVERY book in the Bible and not just the Deutero’s since they were all selected at these councils.
I put it more succintly in Post #52 where i said:
IF you can get them thinking about this and if they admit that the councils had authority to set the canon, then you can begin to talk to them about how that authority has been passed down and how it has preserved the truth of Christ’s teaching. Continue to be gentle, and don’t be afraid to say, “I don’t know”, but then follow it up with, “But I’ll find out!”.
Peace
James
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Techno2000
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Right and when a Protestant thinks their Mom or Dad or close relative might have gone to Hell they can never look in their Bible and fine hope
as in: 2 Machabees12: 46 “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”
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rinnie
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thanks James good advice i will try to remember that. Its just so hard to know what people are like especially on here. I know myself when i answer people i dont think im being mean, and then someone takes it that way, its hard, your tone of voice sure makes a difference huh. But i will try to do what you said, get more history first, Its hard when you know what to say, but to show proof is sometimes so time consuming especially today. with life the way it is. But that is really what this post was supposed to be about, not to prove them wrong, but to understand how much they overlooked and how they can close their eyes to it, or not close their eyes but maybe miss what we see. Please dont get me wrong I love protestants just as I do Catholics. ALot of my friends are Protestant, Heck I married a protestant. He taught me alot too. how alot of what we are taught they were never taught. He said he learned so much in our faith. but thanks James, and ill try to do better.
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rinnie
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This just gave me a idea. Maybe we should start another post,on what to say and not say to set eachother off. they can tell us what we say that really frustrates them,and vice versa. But then again it could get real ugly fast too. something to think about.
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JRKH
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Thank you Rinnie. I think you’re doing fine.
If I may make one suggestion about your posts though, please break them up a little bit. I think many people find it difficult to read one - long paragraph. I realize that most of us here don’t know that much about grammer and paragraphs and such, but just adding a space between every few lines makes it easier to read. (I sometimes do it after I finish and before I post.)
Please don’t think I’m trying to be critical, just a suggestion from a friend.
Peace
James
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JRKH
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I think this would make a very interesting thread.
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