Missing Mass

[lizaanne]

These debates are full of people who actively think about what is right and wrong, and who form their conscience based on reason. It shows that we’re thinking about what God wants and doesn’t want. So its a good thing, IMO. This is what we’re supposed to do: do our best to follow what we believe God wants for us, based on church teachings, which are sometimes difficult to apply in real life. That’s where our own prayer and reason and relationship with God come in.

Exactly - and it basically comes down to priorities. You look at your weekend activity and you decide - how important is it to me that I make sure my family and I get to Mass? How important is that relationship with Christ? How important is it that I spend ONE HOUR with the Creator of the Universe?

Put everything else in perspective and work from there.

Look - if someone was going out of town for an important surprise party they would make darn sure they had the address of the place, directions to get there, and a means of travel to get there on time. Why in the world should we give going to Mass any less diligence and importance in our lives? I just don’t get it why people can’t or don’t want to put Mass as a top priority. It baffles me.

~Liza

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Look - if someone was going out of town for an important surprise party they would make darn sure they had the address of the place, directions to get there, and a means of travel to get there on time. Why in the world should we give going to Mass any less diligence and importance in our lives? I just don’t get it why people can’t or don’t want to put Mass as a top priority. It baffles me.

~Liza

Well, vacation once a year should be a top priority too. It’s necessary for family life and for our mental health. I wouldn’t pass up an opportunity for a once-in-a-lifetime trip just because going to mass wasn’t practical. For example, a wilderness trip away from civilization for over a week. Also some people aren’t good at planning… they think at the last minute. If that’s the case, by the time they think of mass (saturday night) it might be too late. It depends on the situation and the person. Vacation is pretty exciting after all, I don’t think its that weird to forget about planning ahead for mass for a few days when doing something so exciting or special.

 

[lizaanne]

Well, vacation once a year should be a top priority too. It’s necessary for family life and for our mental health. I wouldn’t pass up an opportunity for a once-in-a-lifetime trip just because going to mass wasn’t practical. For example, a wilderness trip away from civilization for over a week. Also some people aren’t good at planning… they think at the last minute. If that’s the case, by the time they think of mass (saturday night) it might be too late. It depends on the situation and the person. Vacation is pretty exciting after all, I don’t think its that weird to forget about planning ahead for mass for a few days when doing something so exciting or special.

You make my point so perfectly there is nothing left to say.

~Liza

 

[Edmundus1581]

Neil_Anthony;6891840:

Well, vacation once a year should be a top priority too. It’s necessary for family life and for our mental health. I wouldn’t pass up an opportunity for a once-in-a-lifetime trip just because going to mass wasn’t practical. For example, a wilderness trip away from civilization for over a week. Also some people aren’t good at planning… they think at the last minute. If that’s the case, by the time they think of mass (saturday night) it might be too late. It depends on the situation and the person. Vacation is pretty exciting after all, I don’t think its that weird to forget about planning ahead for mass for a few days when doing something so exciting or special.

You make my point so perfectly there is nothing left to say.

~Liza

Unless I’ve really missed something here, Matthew’s advice is nearly identical to mine, of which you said I’ve heard some pretty dangerous and wrong information passed out on this forum, but this has to be up there with the worst.

Or were you merely outraged by my inferior English? Some might see such dedication to better English as extreme, but I applaud it!

 

[lizaanne]

Unless I’ve really missed something here, Matthew’s advice is nearly identical to mine, of which you said I’ve heard some pretty dangerous and wrong information passed out on this forum, but this has to be up there with the worst.

Or were you merely outraged by my inferior English? Some might see such dedication to better English as extreme, but I applaud it!

I just think this kind of priority is shocking, and so very very sad:

I wouldn’t pass up an opportunity for a once-in-a-lifetime trip just because going to mass wasn’t practical.

Too think that someone would consider a “once-in-a-lifetime trip” more important than Mass is just beyond me. Sorry - I don’t get it. And I believe very strongly that this is the sort of thinking that leads people away from the Church, the Sacraments, and ultimately from Christ. When a vacation is more important than spending one hour with Jesus Christ then there is something seriously wrong there. When Mass becomes optional, so does everything else that goes along with it. Very very dangerous way to live one’s life.

~Liza

 

[revert_jen]

Unless I’ve really missed something here, Matthew’s advice is nearly identical to mine, of which you said I’ve heard some pretty dangerous and wrong information passed out on this forum, but this has to be up there with the worst.

Or were you merely outraged by my inferior English? Some might see such dedication to better English as extreme, but I applaud it!

Liza’s point (as I understand it, at least) was that if you think it is important to obey God’s command to spend just one hour a week with Him at Mass, you will take the trouble to make sure it happens. The response indicated the relative importance in the responder’s mind between vacation and Mass. It is, as Liza said, a question of priorities, and the responder’s priorities were made clear enough that it made her point for her. Unfortunately, she was apparently wrong about there being nothing left to say.

Just because we disagree with your advice, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make her point.

The idea of an annual vacation trip as some sort of sacrosanct and necessary component of a healthy life is not one shared by the majority of the people in the world, who cannot afford to take one. It’s also not shared by the majority of people in history who couldn’t take the time out from work, e.g. on the farm where all of the animals would die if abandoned for a week. It’s also not shared by lots of people who don’t enjoy travel. In fact the idea that it is necessary to leave town once a year in order to have a healthy family life and not go insane is a really uncommon one. Travel for vacation is not necessary travel. And with proper planning (like the planning required to catch a plane), even necessary travel (e.g. you will lose your job if you don’t go on this trip) usually doesn’t mean you have to miss Mass.

But that is just as a general idea. For a specific case, the proper person to consult is any priest if it is in the past, and your pastor if it is in the future.

–Jen

 

[Edmundus1581]

Hi Lizanne,

Thanks for clearing that up. I get it now

In response…

Your first post in this thread denounced my advice as “dangerous and wrong information” and gave the opposite opinion.

I responded by doing some more research into church teaching, and presented that research in support of my advice, and also clarified my initial opinion - modifying it somewhat in recognition of your response.

(Please note that my tone in this second response was not argumentative - it was just looking more deeply into the subject).

Then someone else came here, and offered the same initial advice as myself, and you have similarly denounced that advice.

I think it would be have been polite, and prudent, to address my response before repeating your initial advise. Not because I feel that my response was particularly profound or important, but simply because I had presented the result of some extra reading on Church teaching, with references. Maybe I got it all wrong - but please show me.

Certainly, if you personally feel obliged to never take a vacation without missing mass, then we have no argument. Our disagreement is about our response to someone else who asked our advice, and particularly, where does “sin” come into it. Any disagreement here should be subordinate to Church teaching.

I don’t have a problem with someone “shooting from the hip”, and calling my advise dangerous and wrong. I do have a problem when that opinion is repeated in the face of (potentially) contrary Church opinion. “Dangerous and wrong information” means more in a Catholic forum than it does in a shooter games forum.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Too think that someone would consider a “once-in-a-lifetime trip” more important than Mass is just beyond me. Sorry - I don’t get it. And I believe very strongly that this is the sort of thinking that leads people away from the Church, the Sacraments, and ultimately from Christ. When a vacation is more important than spending one hour with Jesus Christ then there is something seriously wrong there. When Mass becomes optional, so does everything else that goes along with it. Very very dangerous way to live one’s life.

~Liza

I didn’t say that a once-in-a-lifetime anything is more important than mass. What I said is that you should go on the trip even if it means missing mass. You can go to mass every day for the rest of your life.

By your logic, you should go to mass 72 times every day. After all, daily mass takes 20 minutes, and mass is more important than food, more important than sleep, more important than work. Just stay at mass all the time

We were made to do more than just worship. Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities don’t come up very often

Or consider an example where you have to travel for a charitable purpose. Do you turn down a job as a missionary because there won’t be a priest to go along with you? Do you refuse to go help the earthquake victims because its in a muslim country and there’s no church?

 

[lizaanne]

By your logic, you should go to mass 72 times every day. After all, daily mass takes 20 minutes, and mass is more important than food, more important than sleep, more important than work. Just stay at mass all the time

No - we are REQUIRED to attend Mass (and it is with a capital “M” by the way), every Sunday. Now you are being ridiculous. I have repeatedly said “one hour”.

We were made to do more than just worship. Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities don’t come up very often

So 1 Thessalonians 5:17 means nothing to you?

We are ONLY here to worship God – He created us for no other reason than to love and worship Him! What do you think our purpose on earth is???

Or consider an example where you have to travel for a charitable purpose. Do you turn down a job as a missionary because there won’t be a priest to go along with you? Do you refuse to go help the earthquake victims because its in a muslim country and there’s no church?

I am not talking about the extreme - a camping vacation is not an extreme situation where proper planning and prioritizing could not take place to fulfill the Sunday obligation. As carefully as some people plan their vacations, where they will stay, what they will do, they should be able to also plan to get themselves to Mass. I really don’t think that’s expecting too much.

I’m done here - how sad. I will keep you in my prayers, that some day you get it.

~Liza

 

[Edmundus1581]

I’m done here - how sad.
~Liza

So you are not interested in Church teaching on the matter?

I’m surprised, considering that it’s important enough to you to repeatedly denounce other people’s opinion, in emphatic, abusive tone.

You seem to be saying that good Catholics follow all the church’s rules, in their most demanding sense, and only bad Catholics allow themselves those exceptions provided by the Church, and that one should go to confession, not for actual sin, but for not meeting your high demands.

Taking trouble to get to mass is important. Taking trouble to enter into respectful dialog with fellow Catholics is also important.

This is the first and only time I will do any research to respond if disagree with one of my posts. If there is a next time, I’ll just throw it back to you, with “show me the Church teaching”

• Edmundus

 

[Edmundus1581]

Just so there’s no confusion, let me explain my heavy tone here.

It is not because we have disagreed, and you have dropped out - I have no problem with that. It’s not because you denounced my first post, and then ignored my response - again, not a problem.

It is because my first entry into this discussion with you was to recognise that this is a serious dispute, and then to go away, and think about it, look to what the Church teaches, and then carefully and respectfully respond. You ignored that response, three times now, and have continued with your line, unchanged.

So you appear to be both ignoring me, and ignoring Church teaching. Kind of serious, in a serious discussion, in a Catholic forum.

Sincerely,

Edmundus

 

[Bookcat]

have not read the thread…but this is a great reading on the Lords day

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#The_eucharistic_form_of_the_christian_life

 

[YADA]

Dear OP … I have read the entire thread … and choose not to enter into the fray of sin …

I will just offer to you our family’s take …

We understand that attendance at Mass is a serious responsibility but we attennd Mass because we love to spend that time worshiping our Lord in community … that family meal is important to us … it is the Source and Summit of our Christian Life … nothing is more important then hearing God’s Word proclaimed and receiving the Eucharist - the very Body and Blood of Jesus …

So when we travel or go camping we plan around attendance at Mass … on weekend camping trips we might travel from camp to a local Church [masstimes.org] or we attend a Sunday evening Mass … our parish has a 6:00 PM SUnday evening … many parishes nearby have 7:00PM or 7:30PM and the University of Portland has Sunday night @ 9:00 PM * … with opportunities in many locations ranging from 5:00 PM Saturday to 7:00 PM Sunday … it is not hard to get to Mass …

A few years back I went on a Dental Medical Mission trip to Guatemala … I was the only Catholic - I was part of a group - and did not have independent transportation … I ordered a Spanish Missal - spoke with my parish priest about the potential that I might not be able to attend Mass … [he suggested I borrow a Missal from the parish and spend time reflecting on the readings for the Sunday and participate in solidarity with my faith community IF I was unable to atted Mass] … as it turned out I was able to attend every Sunday Mass I was there … though I had to walk a far distance both times and missed breakfast …

Twice, we have arrived at a parish at the published Mass times only to find the Church locked and vacant … once they had moved the Mass time and location to a local Park for the parish’s yearly picnic - holding Mass at that Park … * and once the parish held a special Mass on the Solemnity of St Joseph and cancelled the regular Sunday Mass time … only a local parishioner would know about these types of events - not the ‘travelers’ who happen by …

I suggest you worry less about whether it was a sin … and more about how important this time with Jesus is … how fortunate we are to have the opportunity to participate in a “Once in a Lifetime Event” every time we join Jesus and our fellow Christian brothers and sisters in the Eucharistic Celebration … how Jesus unites Himself to us by becoming our Heavenly food …

Ask your self why you thought [because obviously it was not that easy - or your conscience would not have nagged you] it was easy to miss Mass … why you have placed others [or fun family activities] ahead of Jesus in your life …

What witness or message does that send to family members [spouse/chidren] about what is important - what activites take on greater importance then God does …

I hink God gave you this wake - up call so that you can look at your life and re-priorotize* *

 

[revert_jen]

So you appear to be both ignoring me, and ignoring Church teaching. Kind of serious, in a serious discussion, in a Catholic forum.

OK, realising that you are talking to Liza, but I will respond here.

Your reading that “Care must be taken to” equals “you don’t have to” is not one I can agree with. Saying “you should be careful to do this” does not mean “you can decide whether ‘almost none’ is the appropriate amount of care to take.” In addition, what we have been saying the whole time is that people need to take care (plan properly, etc.) to attend Mass even when traveling.

I cannot see evidence that Liza has ignored Church teaching. I don’t think your argument stems from an authentic reading of Church teaching. You will notice that CCC #2181 that I quoted earlier did not mention travel when listing serious reasons for missing Mass. That doesn’t exclude it, but it does make it a cause for more thought, and a reason for doubt that should cause anyone to ask their Pastor about it before traveling if they think that, despite trying to plan ahead, they will not be able to attend Mass. (Please note that if someone tries to attend, and the time or place are moved or the information researched before was inaccurate, or they can’t find the place, there is no fault.)

In any case, I see no evidence of Liza ignoring the teachings of the Church. You are making a serious accusation, and I think you should consider whether it is really warranted, based on the evidence. Not responding to a post that contains a doubtful reading of an apostolic letter is not the same as ignoring Church teaching.

–Jen

 

[lizaanne]

So you appear to be both ignoring me, …

Have you considered the possibility that I might just actually have a life away from the keyboard, and that I don’t just sit around all day awaiting your next post?

And yes - I am ignoring you. I have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic.

In any case, I see no evidence of Liza ignoring the teachings of the Church. You are making a serious accusation, and I think you should consider whether it is really warranted, based on the evidence. Not responding to a post that contains a doubtful reading of an apostolic letter is not the same as ignoring Church teaching.

–Jen

Thank you Jen - you DO get it.

~Liza

 

[Edmundus1581]

Edmundus1581;6897303:

So you appear to be both ignoring me, and ignoring Church teaching. Kind of serious, in a serious discussion, in a Catholic forum.

OK, realising that you are talking to Liza, but I will respond here.

Your reading that “Care must be taken to” equals “you don’t have to” is not one I can agree with. Saying “you should be careful to do this” does not mean “you can decide whether ‘almost none’ is the appropriate amount of care to take.” In addition, what we have been saying the whole time is that people need to take care (plan properly, etc.) to attend Mass even when traveling.

I cannot see evidence that Liza has ignored Church teaching. I don’t think your argument stems from an authentic reading of Church teaching. You will notice that CCC #2181 that I quoted earlier did not mention travel when listing serious reasons for missing Mass. That doesn’t exclude it, but it does make it a cause for more thought, and a reason for doubt that should cause anyone to ask their Pastor about it before traveling if they think that, despite trying to plan ahead, they will not be able to attend Mass. (Please note that if someone tries to attend, and the time or place are moved or the information researched before was inaccurate, or they can’t find the place, there is no fault.)

Just one comment: What you have put in quotation marks could be misleading - it is unclear whether the words are from my posts, from the original document (Dies Domini), or whether they are your paraphrase. In fact none are actual quotations, they are your paraphrases.

Other than that, you’ve got the last word on the OP topic, and my previous responses to it.

In any case, I see no evidence of Liza ignoring the teachings of the Church. You are making a serious accusation, and I think you should consider whether it is really warranted, based on the evidence. Not responding to a post that contains a doubtful reading of an apostolic letter is not the same as ignoring Church teaching.

–Jen

This, I will address.

You are responding to my words which you quoted:

*So you appear to be … ignoring Church teaching. *

Please note that this is an active, time and place based statement - “you appear…”. It means, that at the time I wrote it, Liza’s posts appeared to be ignoring Church teaching. It certainly does not mean that Liza’s posts might not later, with more information, be found to be in conformity with Church teaching, (and that mine might not be found to be wrong). Nor does it imply, in the slightest sense, that Liza’s personal views are not now, or at any time, less than 100% in conformity with church teaching. It is what I saw at the time, in the thread. If it gave a different impression, then I am clarifying it now. Note, however, that this post refers to previous posts of mine (including the immediately preceeding) and I think that reading is apparent in that context.

Your (polite) request that I should reconsider whether my accusation is warranted can be understood in two ways:

Either:

Please reconsider the matter at hand (OP topic), in the light of your (Jen’s) response (re: CCC #2181 etc), whether I still consider that Liza’s posts appear to ignore Church teaching,

And/or

Reconsider whether the accusation was warranted at the time, in the context of the thread.

If you mean it the first sense, then, as I say, you’ve got the last word on the OP topic. I will not be analysing your response. If you think it invalidates my accusation (re: Liza appearing to ignore Church teaching, at that time, in the thread), then so be it. If you believe I have a responsibility to address new information, including that in your post, then please (briefly) explain why.

If, however, you mean it in the second sense above, ie. that I should reconsider whether the comment was warranted, at the time I wrote it, in the light of what was then in the thread, then yes, I will happily defend that.

(Either way, I’ve got some travel coming up, and won’t be able to look at it again for about a week, but I will check back in when I return – assuming I’m still alive, children haven’t burnt down the house, etc, etc…)

Or have we all just had enough it? I’ll take that!

• Edmundus

 

[Podo2005]

Exactly - and it basically comes down to priorities. You look at your weekend activity and you decide - how important is it to me that I make sure my family and I get to Mass? How important is that relationship with Christ? How important is it that I spend ONE HOUR with the Creator of the Universe?

Put everything else in perspective and work from there.

Look - if someone was going out of town for an important surprise party they would make darn sure they had the address of the place, directions to get there, and a means of travel to get there on time. Why in the world should we give going to Mass any less diligence and importance in our lives? I just don’t get it why people can’t or don’t want to put Mass as a top priority. It baffles me.

~Liza

I couldn’t agree more

Here is the Church teaching on this matter

**2180 **The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: **“On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.”**117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118

**2181 **The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
**2182 **Participation in the communal celebration of the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church. The faithful give witness by this to their communion in faith and charity. Together they testify to God’s holiness and their hope of salvation. They strengthen one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So to the original poster, I would suggest that you go to confession as soon as possible (even if you didn’t have full knowledge… its still good to confess your sins so as to recieve the grace not to sin again) and then in the future plan your trips accordingly…i.e. keeping in mind that Sunday Mass is your #1 priority on Sundays and days of obligation. Skipping mass for a vacation is not a “serious reason” for missing mass…

Your brother in Christ,
Zachary

 

[revert_jen]

Just one comment: What you have put in quotation marks could be misleading - it is unclear whether the words are from my posts, from the original document (Dies Domini), or whether they are your paraphrase. In fact none are actual quotations, they are your paraphrases.

Actually, the quotation marks were just the only way I know of to indicate what phrases I was contrasting. However “care must be taken to” is a pretty close paraphrase of Dies Domini, which says, “they are to take care to.” It’s not like I took a lot of liberties with it. Granted, my paraphrases of your ideas were perhaps less close.

Your (polite) request that I should reconsider whether my accusation is warranted can be understood in two ways:

Either:

Please reconsider the matter at hand (OP topic), in the light of your (Jen’s) response (re: CCC #2181 etc), whether I still consider that Liza’s posts appear to ignore Church teaching,

And/or

Reconsider whether the accusation was warranted at the time, in the context of the thread.

If you mean it the first sense, then, as I say, you’ve got the last word on the OP topic. I will not be analysing your response. If you think it invalidates my accusation (re: Liza appearing to ignore Church teaching, at that time, in the thread), then so be it. If you believe I have a responsibility to address new information, including that in your post, then please (briefly) explain why.

If, however, you mean it in the second sense above, ie. that I should reconsider whether the comment was warranted, at the time I wrote it, in the light of what was then in the thread, then yes, I will happily defend that.

It was actually more of the second sense, but not exactly. It’s more of,

• Liza never contradicted anything in the actual words of Church teaching in any way.
• You didn’t just say, “You appear to be ignoring Church teaching.” You also said, “you are not interested in Church teaching” and “You seem to be saying that… one should go to confession, not for actual sin, but for not meeting your high demands.” And you called her comments “abusive.” I think that is all pretty serious, and you want to be wary of throwing those sorts of comments around unless the situation is VERY clear, which it certainly wasn’t.

This is not related to whether I agree with your interpretation of what Dies Domini means. Even if I agreed, I would still think those comments were not necessarily warranted since the actual words in the document don’t say something clear like “it is beneficial, although not required, to ensure you attend Mass even when traveling.” The sad part is that there are people who do ignore Church teaching on various issues, even when it’s clear like that. Nobody on this thread AFAIK falls into this category. We are all trying to do the right thing, even if there is some disagreement as to what that is.

(Either way, I’ve got some travel coming up, and won’t be able to look at it again for about a week, but I will check back in when I return – assuming I’m still alive, children haven’t burnt down the house, etc, etc…)

I hope you have a good trip, with no house fires in your absence!

Or have we all just had enough it? I’ll take that!

I probably should have just taken you up on this, but work is a bit slow this week.

–Jen