Mixed-Faith Marriage in Outdoor Ceremony

[Kc906]

Earlier, you posted, “She is very aware of both of our roles in the family, and the husbands role as the Head of the Household. Even her mother and any JW out there will strongly agree that the husband is the Head, and that he is in charge of rearing a godly family unit.”

Being “older” (which I don’t admit to very often ) and wiser from experience, I might suggest you “hear” what is not being said . . . .

Like, that your future MIL was head of her family . . . and that her husband fell away form Catholicism. Dealing with us women can be an interesting thing . . . I’d guess that woman is thinking, “I got one man to give up that Faith, surely I can get this guy to give it up too so my daughter can raise her family just like I did.”

I do understand what it is to be in love and to think the other person is the only one in the world. But honestly, there are lots of women who could be your wife. And, there may be one who is better suited for you. If I could do it over again, I would not have attempted to marry someone with different religious beliefs . . .the pain & betrayal from the divorce and annulment almost crushed me. My future spouse will be a Catholic. It’s something I will not compromise on.

May God be with you as you continue to discern and consider your future. Sounds like you are committed to being an ideal husband and that is certainly half the equation!

Thank you for your kind words. The rise of the internet in the 90’s and the availability of information has assisted my spiritual growth over the past few years, along with my ability to defend our faith against heresy. I’ve done so much research into who they are (JW’s) and what they believe, along with what they have written over the years. Even if somehow something is mentioned to me and I don’t know the answer; I definitely know that God is not using their religion, and I know that only deception could be coming from “them.”

These past few years I have seen myself going from a cradle Catholic who rarely practiced (through college and shortly after,) to one who has grown into a man who loves, understands, and can articulate the Church and her teachings. For me, the Early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene) were some of the greatest for my spiritual development. Reading through the writings of Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and letting their Catholic point of view on God and life really soak in to my soul. These are men who proclaimed Catholic beliefs from the very beginning. Men who were put to the test defending their beliefs, and ultimately laid down their lives defending what they knew to be true.

I pray that my views and stance are not taken due to “pride,” but rather from faith in Jesus and the truths that were passed down from the very beginning. These truths are very different from the beliefs that my future MIL now holds, and I will stand with Christ in defense of these truths if needed. This I do pray, through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Amen

 

[Kc906]

Just a heads up. I wanted to get married on the lawn at the Church in which I grew up and was denied by the Diocese.

We had to get married inside no matter what. That particular Diocese required all Catholic weddings be at the altar.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Our wedding will not be a Catholic ceremony, so it sounds like the requirements are different for us than those couples who are both Catholic and being married.

 

[Kc906]

Well we had a meeting with the deacon at the local parish we have both been attending and things did not go as smoothly as we had hoped. He told us that the only options for a Wedding would be a Catholic Church or another Religious House affiliated or not with another denomination. He stated that the Wedding must be coordinated by a Deacon or Priest in order to be valid by the Church, but I was under the impression that a dispensation could be requested to have another ordained person carry out the wedding ceremony?

This was not his advice, but he stated the only thing that makes sense is that we continue to get married in whatever fashion we wish, and then attempt to get the marriage convalidated after we are married. Of course this means I could not accept any of the sacraments until this convalidation were granted (not sure how likely it would be?) The worst sins are those committed by those who know they are doing wrong and continue to do it, I am not sure if this a cross I can carry. If I were to continue on with an Outdoor wedding, wouldn’t I be considered living in sin since I would be having relations with a woman all while the Church does not recognize my wedding?

 

[1ke]

Well we had a meeting with the deacon at the local parish we have both been attending and things did not go as smoothly as we had hoped. He told us that the only options for a Wedding would be a Catholic Church or another Religious House affiliated or not with another denomination. He stated that the Wedding must be coordinated by a Deacon or Priest in order to be valid by the Church, but I was under the impression that a dispensation could be requested to have another ordained person carry out the wedding ceremony?

.
This is not correct. Canon 1127.3 precludes a Catholic priest or deacon receiving the vows or exchange of consent if the couple has been dispensed from form.

Please note, however, that some bishops will not grant a dispensation from form for a Catholic to be married outside. Dispensation from form might be hard to obtain without a very good reason for the outdoor ceremony.

he stated the only thing that makes sense is that we continue to get married in whatever fashion we wish, and then attempt to get the marriage convalidated after we are married.

That does not make sense at all, as it would result in an invalid marriage, you separated from the sacraments, and still in need of the full marriage preparation process to convalidate your marriage. BAD ADVICE.

Of course this means I could not accept any of the sacraments until this convalidation were granted (not sure how likely it would be?) The worst sins are those committed by those who know they are doing wrong and continue to do it, I am not sure if this a cross I can carry. If I were to continue on with an Outdoor wedding, wouldn’t I be considered living in sin since I would be having relations with a woman all while the Church does not recognize my wedding?

Yes. BAD ADVICE. Not the route to take at all.

 

[PatriceA]

Well we had a meeting with the deacon at the local parish we have both been attending and things did not go as smoothly as we had hoped. He told us that the only options for a Wedding would be a Catholic Church or another Religious House affiliated or not with another denomination. He stated that the Wedding must be coordinated by a Deacon or Priest in order to be valid by the Church, but I was under the impression that a dispensation could be requested to have another ordained person carry out the wedding ceremony?

This was not his advice, but he stated the only thing that makes sense is that we continue to get married in whatever fashion we wish, and then attempt to get the marriage convalidated after we are married. Of course this means I could not accept any of the sacraments until this convalidation were granted (not sure how likely it would be?) The worst sins are those committed by those who know they are doing wrong and continue to do it, I am not sure if this a cross I can carry. If I were to continue on with an Outdoor wedding, wouldn’t I be considered living in sin since I would be having relations with a woman all while the Church does not recognize my wedding?

I think the bolded part may be what is confusing you. I think the Deacon meant he or the priest must coordinate all the paperwork and the process and file it on your behalf for the dispensation. You yourself don’t file the form or the request. You still have to work with your parish, they still are involved in preparing you and your fiance to be married even though they may not be officiating the ceremony. A dispensation doesn’t mean you have eliminated having your priest or deacon involved in the planning for the marriage.

 

[Kc906]

I think the bolded part may be what is confusing you. I think the Deacon meant he or the priest must coordinate all the paperwork and the process and file it on your behalf for the dispensation. You yourself don’t file the form or the request. You still have to work with your parish, they still are involved in preparing you and your fiance to be married even though they may not be officiating the ceremony. A dispensation doesn’t mean you have eliminated having your priest or deacon involved in the planning for the marriage.

That is the part that caught me off guard the most, he stated more than once that the only way that I could be married would be if we were married by him (Deacon) or the Parish Priest, and an exception could be granted to be married in a “Non Catholic House of Worship.” We plan on going through the Pre-Cana process to help prepare us for marriage, but this Deacon was not referring to Pre-Cana during our discussion; I asked him several times about what I had read on the topic. I presumed he would at least bring out a copy of the form that we need to submit and explain to us what it means, but that was not brought up either.

Perhaps the Priest is not willing to have marriages conducted by outside pastors; I suppose that could be his decision to make for his flock. The Deacon has been serving the Church for 10 years or so, he is an older gentlemen who is in his 60’s. I personally assumed he would be aware of other possible scenarios, but during out conversation he consistantly said it would not be possible.

 

[maryjk]

Perhaps the Priest is not willing to have marriages conducted by outside pastors; I suppose that could be his decision to make for his flock. The Deacon has been serving the Church for 10 years or so, he is an older gentlemen who is in his 60’s. I personally assumed he would be aware of other possible scenarios, but during out conversation he consistantly said it would not be possible.

And it may not be. Your bishop may have stated that he will not grant dispensation. If that is the case, the deacon is right.

You may want to ask him outright what is allowed and what isn’t and if it isn’t allowed, why. Don’t wait for him to bring it up. Don’t dance around the bush. Be straightforward.

When I applied for dispensation, I was afraid we wouldn’t get it. So after the priest said he had sent the paperwork, I waited two weeks, then called to see if it had been approved. The priest told me that he was so sorry, of course it had been, and he should have told me that only very rarely did it NOT get approved. Now my dispensation was not for form. It was a totally different situation.

 

[agapewolf]

If I were to continue on with an Outdoor wedding, wouldn’t I be considered living in sin since I would be having relations with a woman all while the Church does not recognize my wedding?

Solve this problem simply. Don’t have relations with a woman until you are married to her-- in the church.

I’m not suggesting that you should go ahead like this (nor do I think its any way a good idea), but the basic premise is the same.

 

[Kc906]

Solve this problem simply. Don’t have relations with a woman until you are married to her-- in the church.

I’m not suggesting that you should go ahead like this (nor do I think its any way a good idea), but the basic premise is the same.

The thought crossed my mind; i’m sure that she would not take to it too kindly knowing that she is legally married to me, and we couldn’t have relations. But ultimately it may come to that since both of our sides may not be able to come to an agreement that suits one another.

If that is the only alternative I have then I would rather go down the Justice of the Peace and get “legally” married right away, since I heard the Church would rather wait around a year before they convalidate a marriage to ensure that the couple will not have issues. I suppose that I would not be excluded from the sacraments if I were cohabiting with my “Legal Wife” and not having relations with her?

 

[agapewolf]

The thought crossed my mind; i’m sure that she would not take to it too kindly knowing that she is legally married to me, and we couldn’t have relations. But ultimately it may come to that since both of our sides may not be able to come to an agreement that suits one another.

If that is the only alternative I have then I would rather go down the Justice of the Peace and get “legally” married right away, since I heard the Church would rather wait around a year before they convalidate a marriage to ensure that the couple will not have issues. I suppose that I would not be excluded from the sacraments if I were cohabiting with my “Legal Wife” and not having relations with her?

Well, there are several issues here.

First, I don’t know where you heard that you have to wait a year.

but, the initial problem here is that you are planning on making a public statement against the church, and making a public statement of fornication (even if you aren’t planning on relations, it’s still public). That act itself is sinful.

But the persistent state of sinfulness would not exist if you are not having relations (even better, don’t live together).

This is just a bad idea all around.

 

[Kc906]

First, I don’t know where you heard that you have to wait a year. But, the initial problem here is that you are planning on making a public statement against the church, and making a public statement of fornication (even if you aren’t planning on relations, it’s still public). That act itself is sinful.

But the persistent state of sinfulness would not exist if you are not having relations (even better, don’t live together).

This is just a bad idea all around.

I thought I came across something for newlyweds (like we would be,) and the convalidation process taking longer since most convalidations are for couples who have been married for several years and likely have children.

But like you said, if being legally married, not having relations with my legal wife, would still equate me as living in Sin, then that is not a route i’m going to choose. There may only be one logical route for us to take if this wedding is to proceed, and that will take sacrifice from both of us (not just me.)

 

[manualman]

I usually encourage people to work really hard to open both eyes wide before embarking on a mixed faith marriage. You seem to have done your homework and I applaud you for that.

I like to compare marriage to crossing the English Channel. It IS possible to swim the English Channel, more than a couple people have done it. But it sure is a heck of a lot harder than using a boat.

Mixed faith marriages are like swimming instead of boating across. You seem determined to swim for it on this issue, so please make sure that you’re both up to it before plunging in!

 

[PatriceA]

I thought I came across something for newlyweds (like we would be,) and the convalidation process taking longer since most convalidations are for couples who have been married for several years and likely have children.

But like you said, if being legally married, not having relations with my legal wife, would still equate me as living in Sin, then that is not a route i’m going to choose. There may only be one logical route for us to take if this wedding is to proceed, and that will take sacrifice from both of us (not just me.)

That is the key. What are/is the elements of this wedding that your fiance is willing to sacrifice or compromise?

 

[Kc906]

The whole process that we have been going through is very frustrating. I know being a follower of Jesus is not easy, but getting married to a person that you love, and having a great relationship with God (with each other) should not result in this. I called two different parishes today regarding having a wedding at a non-Catholic house of worship (Chapel,) and having an ordained minister conduct the ceremony.

One specifically said it was impossible, and a Deacon or Priest would need to conduct the ceremony (what I heard yesterday.) The other said they have never seen a Dispensation from Canonical Form granted due to the reasons I am providing (Family of the Bride would not attend.)

So after this I called the Archdiocese office directly and spoke with a lady who is in charge of the Family Life department, she specifically told me that a Dispensation from Canonical Form could be submitted by the couple through their Parish Priest, but it would still be required to have a member of the Church attend the wedding. Bingo! The answer I am looking for, yet nobody else even says its a possibility. So I tell her that my parish (didn’t mention I seeked other parishes) didn’t say this was possible. At this point she forwarded me on to someone else who didn’t know why I was calling, by this time I was not able to address this further at work. So I guess my next step is to follow back up with the lady the main Archdiocese office tomorrow.

It’s almost as if it were better off if I were not practicing and did what I want, and then later on realize I made a mistake and seek out the Church to get my marriage convalidated. I would confess my sins, sincerely not knowing the result of my actions to get married without going through the Church. BUT, because I know these things already, how much worse of a sin it would be if I don’t comply with every requirement/paperwork, that the local Churches say is not even possible/applicable.

 

[agapewolf]

The problem is that you are focussing on the wedding. Stop it. That is the least of your concern.

You need to focus on the marriage. Ask for an appointment for marriage preparation. Go through the discernment process. Let them make sure you are both free to marry.

You will have to get not only a dispensation from canonical form (for the wedding itself, if you choose that avenue) but a dispensation for disparity of cult (to marry someone not baptized-- for the marriage).

THe priest/deacon will take care of this. Keep in mind here…it is MORE important you marry according to the laws of the church than it is for her to have family present at a fake wedding (Which is what it will be if you do not go through the proper channels)/

 

[Phemie]

The whole process that we have been going through is very frustrating. I know being a follower of Jesus is not easy, but getting married to a person that you love, and having a great relationship with God (with each other) should not result in this. I called two different parishes today regarding having a wedding at a non-Catholic house of worship (Chapel,) and having an ordained minister conduct the ceremony.

One specifically said it was impossible, and a Deacon or Priest would need to conduct the ceremony (what I heard yesterday.) The other said they have never seen a Dispensation from Canonical Form granted due to the reasons I am providing (Family of the Bride would not attend.)

So after this I called the Archdiocese office directly and spoke with a lady who is in charge of the Family Life department, she specifically told me that a Dispensation from Canonical Form could be submitted by the couple through their Parish Priest, but it would still be required to have a member of the Church attend the wedding. Bingo! The answer I am looking for, yet nobody else even says its a possibility. So I tell her that my parish (didn’t mention I seeked other parishes) didn’t say this was possible. At this point she forwarded me on to someone else who didn’t know why I was calling, by this time I was not able to address this further at work. So I guess my next step is to follow back up with the lady the main Archdiocese office tomorrow.

It’s almost as if it were better off if I were not practicing and did what I want, and then later on realize I made a mistake and seek out the Church to get my marriage convalidated. I would confess my sins, sincerely not knowing the result of my actions to get married without going through the Church. BUT, because I know these things already, how much worse of a sin it would be if I don’t comply with every requirement/paperwork, that the local Churches say is not even possible/applicable.

I’m getting totally confused by the responses you are being given.

I’ve dealt with this a several times while I was parish secretary. I’ve never known a request for a dispensation from form to be refused and once one was granted where the marriage took place was up to the couple and the officiant and no member of the parish needed to be there. In fact, it was up to the Catholic to let the parish know that the marriage had in fact occurred so that it could be recorded in or register and at the chancery and, if the Catholic had not been baptized in our parish, so that we could send a notification to the baptismal parish.

As I read the norms in the US I see nothing that states that a member of the parish has to be present if a dispensation is granted but the norms say

1. Where there are serious difficulties in observing the Catholic canonical form in a mixed marriage, the local Ordinary of the Catholic party or of the place where the marriage is to occur may dispense the Catholic from the observance of the form for a just pastoral cause. An exhaustive list is impossible, but **the following are the types of reasons: to achieve family harmony or to avoid family alienation, **to obtain parental agreement to the marriage, to recognize the significant claims of relationship or special friendship with a non-Catholic minister, to permit the marriage in a church that has particular importance to the non- Catholic. If the Ordinary of the Catholic party grants a dispensation for a marriage which is to take place in another diocese, the Ordinary of that diocese should be informed beforehand.

1. Ordinarily this dispensation from the canonical form is granted in view of the proposed celebration of a religious marriage service. In some exceptional circumstances (e.g., certain Catholic-Jewish marriages) it may be necessary that the dispensation be granted so that a civil ceremony may be performed. In any case, a public form that is civilly recognized for the celebration of marriage is required.

old.usccb.org/norms/1127-2.htm

catholicdoors.com/misc/marriage/nccb.htm

 

[4Squarebaby]

If I am following this correctly the problem is not that your fiance is a non Catholic Christian but that she left the Jehovah Witnesses, or her mother later joined the JWs and you want neutral ground so her mother will or might further bend the JW rules to attend a ceremony?

Did future mother in law give you the ideal or did you and your fiance think of this one?

 

[quiet52]

Dear OP,

You are obviously a sweet and devoted man to try to accomodate your fiance’s desires as to helping her and her family feel more comfortable about her marrying a Catholic. You distress is understandable that the reality presented is different from your expectations.

Please do not consider sinning for the sake of being married. Marriage is a holy institution. Love for God trumps love for any individual person, though, including a spouse.

Our Lord’s holy Church can only accomodate to a certain extent. My diocese will not grant permission for an outdoor ceremony either (maybe no diocese does).

If you’re not able to connect with someone in the diocesan marriage tribunal office, then go to the diocesan website for more information about what your bishop requires: Catholic diocese of ____ > Marriage Norms, or Catholic diocese of ____ > Mixed Marriage Permission or Disparity of Cult Dispensation.

I concur with another poster – I encourage you and your fiance to begin the marriage preparation in your parish. This will help your fiance to better understand what the Church expects of marriage. It will help you to discern, hopefully with full conviction, your commitment to the faith over everything else, and help you to make a decision as to the actual wedding day and how you want to live as a Catholic husband and disciple from day one in your marriage.

Do everything with prayerfulness, and keep loving God and your fiance with joy and tenderness!

 

[1ke]

I’ve never known a request for a dispensation from form to be refused and once one was granted where the marriage took place was up to the couple

The particular diocese in which the OP lives, has a somewhat different approach. This information is actually required on the form for dispensation-- why the dispensation is needed, where the ceremony will take place, who will officiate, etc.

Not saying it won’t be granted, but it is definitely information the bishop is reviewing in making his decision.

Now, why parish and diocesan staff and members of the clergy are giving wrong answers, I cannot fathom. The OP’s diocese is my former diocese, and I dealt with a lot of people when I lived there-- never ran into this. Maybe there have been some retirements???

and the officiant and no member of the parish needed to be there.

this is accurate.

In fact, it was up to the Catholic to let the parish know that the marriage had in fact occurred so that it could be recorded in or register and at the chancery and, if the Catholic had not been baptized in our parish, so that we could send a notification to the baptismal parish.

This is also accurate.

 

[1ke]

If you’re not able to connect with someone in the diocesan marriage tribunal office, then go to the diocesan website for more information about what your bishop requires: Catholic diocese of ____ > Marriage Norms, or Catholic diocese of ____ > Mixed Marriage Permission or Disparity of Cult Dispensation.

The OP has the form. The form is pretty clear. How the deacon can be unware of the requirements is pretty beyond me at this point.