Moderate Islam: Great Article

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Just for a moment suppose that the “zionist occupation of Palestine” was a total act of theivery and that the Isreali Army eats Palestinian children for breakfast. I would submit that this might explain terrorists killing innocent civilians and slithering back into the dark of the rocks from which they crawled, but it hardly justifies it.
 
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Mercurius:
READ the Quran!

It calls for war on the “Mushrikeen” and the “People of the Book” (ie.Christians and Jews) who do not embrace the “true” religion (ie. Islam).

It calls those who believe that Christ is God ATHIESTS (Kaphara) and thus WAR must be waged against them.

The Quran IS HATE LITERATURE and should be BANNED in the West! And Mosques must not be allowed to be built.

We are not to blame Muslims for committing these terrorist acts because they are ONLY FOLLOWING what is WRITTEN in the “holy” Quran and the HADITHS of the “prophet”.

I was born in the MIddle East and lived in Islamic countries to NOT BE FOOLED. Unfortunately, we live in countries so affraid of being called “racist” or “intolerant” that we will allow followers of a religion that calls on its followers to KILL US into our very lands.

Is this not INSANE!
Maybe the bible should be banned too.
 
Muslim immigration to the West should be banned immediately. The professor is engaging in the immemorial practice of taqiyah. The educated muslims in the west are deceitful. They tell lies to deceive the host country.
 
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Shadowcry:
Maybe the bible should be banned too.
The Bible does not call for the murder of “unbelievers” and “kaphara” or “mushrikeen”. The Quran COMMANDS the killing and/or SUBJUGATION of non-muslims.

All the wars of the Old Testament were for the land God gave the descendants of Abraham and that this land should be free of the pagan (which included HUMAN SACRIFICE) cults.

The Bible DOES NOT call for JIHAD, Holy War, either in the Old or New Testaments.
 
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cestusdei:
Spencer has Islam pegged. He exposes the truth. He is doing a great service for everyone. Even Muslims.
Dear cestusdei,

Then I have a bad news for you.

People like Spencer make Muslims **grow in their Islamic faith ** and make stronger Muslims. Because no person in his right mind will ever take word of Spencer type people as word of truth and go on to revise his/her faith. If you think otherwise, then you are living in your own dream-world.

And on the other hand, sincere/truth seeking people of any faith become more curious to know Islam and when they learn it from it’s own perspective then the outcome is not a good news for you because they either embrace Islam or atleast don’t talk non-sense like you. No wonder Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world despite all kinds of false propaganda against it.

 
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freedomm:
Dear cestusdei,

Then I have a bad news for you.

People like Spencer make Muslims **grow in their Islamic faith ** and make stronger Muslims. Because no person in his right mind will ever take word of Spencer type people as word of truth and go on to revise his/her faith. If you think otherwise, then you are living in your own dream-world.

And on the other hand, sincere/truth seeking people of any faith become more curious to know Islam and when they learn it from it’s own perspective then the outcome is not a good news for you because they either embrace Islam or atleast don’t talk non-sense like you. No wonder Islam is the fastest growing relgion in the world despite all kinds of false propaganda against it.
:whistle: :whistle:
 
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freedomm:
Dear cestusdei,

Then I have a bad news for you.

People like Spencer make Muslims **grow in their Islamic faith **and make stronger Muslims. Because no person in his right mind will ever take word of Spencer type people as word of truth and go on to revise his/her faith. If you think otherwise, then you are living in your own dream-world.

And on the other hand, sincere/truth seeking people of any faith become more curious to know Islam and when they learn it from it’s own perspective then the outcome is not a good news for you because they either embrace Islam or atleast don’t talk non-sense like you. No wonder Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world despite all kinds of false propaganda against it.
Hello Freedomm/Justice2006! You’re so funny! Can’t you ever think of something original to say! Same old, same old stuff! :yawn:
 
free,
And Islamic apologists make me stronger in my faith. Every sura of the Quran makes me grateful I am a Christian.

As for “fastest growing”. Everyone claims that. Ask the Mormons they claim they are. Muslims pad their numbers all the time. In my family and friends I don’t know one person who has become Muslim. Not one. But remember, we don’t kill those who covert. Do you in Pakistan?
 
People like Spencer make Muslims grow in their Islamic faith and make stronger Muslims. Because no person in his right mind will ever take word of Spencer type people as word of truth and go on to revise his/her faith. If you think otherwise, then you are living in your own dream-world.
I believe this is quite true. When I read Jack Chick articles claiming that the Pope is the anti-christ, I laugh first, and then I feel more comfortable than ever with my Church, because I realize that those attacks are silly and based on lies.

It makes people feel better when all the attacks on their faith are based on lies, because it gives the impression that the attackers can’t do anything with the truth. This is why Spencer’s work is useful only to people who don’t know anything about Islam; if they don’t see how grossly biased it is, then it might have some appeal. For the rest of us, it’s the anti-muslim incarnation of Jack Chick comics. Spencer might as well be making “politically incorrect” coloring books.
 
Your “church”? Please.

Spenser wrote a great book on Islam for Catholics. He has no problem calling a spade a spade. No pc pseudo history from him.
 
Spenser wrote a great book on Islam for Catholics. He has no problem calling a spade a spade. No pc pseudo history from him.
Yes, I read it. It’s not just politically incorrect, it’s factually incorrect and the product of a hate campaign. That is not surprising, since Spencer is not a historian.
 
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cestusdei:
As for “fastest growing”. Everyone claims that. Ask the Mormons they claim they are. Muslims pad their numbers all the time.
Dear cestusdei:

When I said Islam is the fastest growing religion, then I did not based my conclusion on some self-praising Muslim claims.

Because first of all, no sincere Muslim organization/movement is interested in conducting any research or study about how many Muslims are in and out of Islam. This is a painstaking and useless job. But luckily it is being done by the West and Muslims are releived. It is the West (mostly Christian/secluar) who is telling you and the Muslims and the whole world that Islam is the fastest-growing relgion even in the belly of America and there are now TWO BILLION Muslims around the globe.

I will just give you two examples:

BBC’s FACT FILE ON ISLAM says:

**ISLAM FACT FILE **
There are two billion Muslims world-wide.

The Qur’an is the Book of Allah that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed over a period of 23 years.

The Qur’an consists of 114 surahs (or chapters) varying in length from 3 to 286 verses.

To properly understand the teachings of Allah, Muslims say that one should refer to the Arabic text of the Qur’an

The Qur’an is the most widely read book in the world. All Muslims memorise parts of it to recite in their prayers.

Some Muslims memorise the entire Qur’an.
bbc.co.uk/insideout/northeast/series4/yvonne_ridley_iraq.shtml ]

The below qoute is from The Daily Washington Post, USA:

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States and is expected to become the second-largest religious bloc here in the next few years, but the government has not tapped into its own community as part of the global outreach, U.S. officials say.

“It’s very important for American Muslims to be involved, as they’re an important conduit to the wider Islamic world and they should be speaking out,” the second U.S. official added. “But American Muslims generally feel they’re not included like other communities. We should be talking to them, as they have a lot of knowledge of the region.”
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61213-2005Apr17.html ]​
 
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pro_universal:
Yes, I read it. It’s not just politically incorrect, it’s factually incorrect and the product of a hate campaign. That is not surprising, since Spencer is not a historian.
Is that right?

If Robert Spencer’s book truly is factually incorrect, why don’t you show us what is ‘factually incorrect’ in Robert Specer’s book and prove that it is ‘factually incorrect’?

Robert Spencer replied to a similar claim recently on his website.

Here is what Robert Spencer wrote ( found at jihadwatch.org/archives/010193.php )
Jihad Watch reader Mike has alerted me to a reader review of my book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) at Amazon.com. Because it is indicative of a common tendency, I decided to post this extract here:
I found this book to be one of the most bigoted, hateful, historically distorted, and twisted tracts that I have ever read. I will not take the time to go into detail as the book just is not worth it…
This reminded me of an email I received awhile back from a close associate of a prominent Islamic apologist who enjoys some influence among the ignorant and easily led in Washington:
You have no idea what’s going on with any of this – and you WON’T because nobody who DOES know will be wasting their time telling you.
It further reminded me of Amir Taheri’s article in the New York Post yesterday, which expansively claims that the jihadists have hijacked Islam without actually specifying how exactly they have done it, or what obvious Islamic doctrines they are transgressing.
All this is as commonplace as the air we breathe. Every day we hear that the jihadists are out of the mainstream, are twisting Islamic teachings, and so on, but at most all we get as an explanation of exactly how are bland affirmations that Islam forbids killing innocents, forbids suicide, allows for war only in self-defense, etc. – all of which have been refuted many times over by jihadists, with the refutations remaining unanswered by peaceful Muslims.
The Amazon reviewer above later adds: “It is clear that one of the author’s thinly veiled agendas is to disparage the ‘liberal establishment’ for ignoring and even aiding the ‘Mohammedan menace.’” I still have the Word document of this book on my hard drive, and I just searched: the words “liberal establishment” and “Mohammadan menace” appear nowhere in the book. This is the kind of analysis that passes for criticism of my work: outright fabrications. Just once, I’d like to see someone who really thinks that my books are inaccurate explain in detail how that is so, with copious references to the Qur’an, Sunnah, and fiqh – instead of just saying it isn’t worth bothering.
But this is a much larger question than just my books. Western governments have invested heavily in the proposition that mainstream, “true” Islam is peaceful, and that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Western countries accept the core values of Western pluralism. Yet this has been blind trust. No one has yet formulated an Islamic theology and jurisprudence that actually provides for these things, and definitively refutes the jihadists using Islamic texts. I do not believe it can be done, and I think that official Washington needs to be cognizant of that fact. From those who claim that it has been done I have only received airy affirmations that it isn’t worth bothering to show me.
All right. One more time I am asking for anyone of good will to show me. Send me examples of Islamic religious scholars rejecting, on Islamic grounds, jihad violence against non-Muslims; rejecting the idea that Sharia law should be instituted in the Muslim and non-Muslim world; and teaching the idea that non-Muslims and Muslims should live together indefinitely as equals. Send me rejections of the ideas that women should not enjoy full equality of rights with men. Send me information that shows that those who write such rejections are not lone voices crying in the wilderness, with the wolves of Islamic orthodoxy ready to pounce upon them, but that they represent broad traditions within Islam and have large followings.
I’ll be right here, at director@jihadwatch.org.
 
discipleofJesus, you said:
If Robert Spencer’s book truly is factually incorrect, why don’t you show us what is ‘factually incorrect’ in Robert Specer’s book and prove that it is ‘factually incorrect’?
Well, here’s a Sheikh of the Shafi’i school with a painstakingly annotated fatwa denouncing all deliberate killing of civilians:
livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

I’ll quote it for you:
It goes without saying that men and innocent bystanders who are not direct combatants are also included in this prohibition. The nature of this prohibition is so specific and well-defined that there can be no legal justification, nor can there be a legitimate shar’î excuse, for circumventing this convention of war by targeting non-combatants or civilians whatsoever, and that the hukm shar’î of killing them is not only harâm but also a Major Sin [Kabira] and contravenes one of the principal commandments of our way of life.
How much more clear can you get?

What’s more, every single legal tradition in Sunni Islam…Maliki, Hanafi, Hanbali, and Shafi’i, shares this same prohibition.

Spencer isn’t interested in this though, because no matter how many articles he gets by email, he’ll always call them “lone voices in the wilderness.” That’s because he, like many, is so full of bias and contempt for muslims that he fits the facts to his preconceptions, rather than drawing conclusions based on the facts.

I’ve never met a single muslim person who supports or thinks that his religion supports the things Spencer accuses them of supporting. The problem here is Spencer’s biased thought process, not Islamic teaching.

Here’s a list of statements condemning terrorism by Islamic organizations to go with the extensive religious argument posted above:unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

Anyone who has spent any time looking knows that you need to try hard to find groups that do preach violence…most muslims, as their faith demands, condemn it.
 
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freedomm:
Dear cestusdei:

When I said Islam is the fastest growing religion, then I did not based my conclusion on some self-praising Muslim claims.

Because first of all, no sincere Muslim organization/movement is interested in conducting any research or study about how many Muslims are in and out of Islam. This is a painstaking and useless job. But luckily it is being done by the West and Muslims are releived. It is the West (mostly Christian/secluar) who is telling you and the Muslims and the whole world that Islam is the fastest-growing relgion even in the belly of America and there are now TWO BILLION Muslims around the globe.

I will just give you two examples:

BBC’s FACT FILE ON ISLAM says:

**ISLAM FACT FILE **

There are two billion Muslims world-wide.

The Qur’an is the Book of Allah that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed over a period of 23 years.

The Qur’an consists of 114 surahs (or chapters) varying in length from 3 to 286 verses.

To properly understand the teachings of Allah, Muslims say that one should refer to the Arabic text of the Qur’an

The Qur’an is the most widely read book in the world. All Muslims memorise parts of it to recite in their prayers.

Some Muslims memorise the entire Qur’an.

bbc.co.uk/insideout/northeast/series4/yvonne_ridley_iraq.shtml ]

The below qoute is from The Daily Washington Post, USA:

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States and is expected to become the second-largest religious bloc here in the next few years, but the government has not tapped into its own community as part of the global outreach, U.S. officials say.

“It’s very important for American Muslims to be involved, as they’re an important conduit to the wider Islamic world and they should be speaking out,” the second U.S. official added. “But American Muslims generally feel they’re not included like other communities. We should be talking to them, as they have a lot of knowledge of the region.”

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61213-2005Apr17.html ]

Same old, same old! All that this means as Hitler once said, is that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe in it!😃 😃
 
pro_universal,

why don’t you quote Robert Spencer (with references) and then refute Robert Spencer’s quote/s with quotes and references to the Qur’an, Sunnah, and fiqh?
 
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