Modern Genetics and Adam & Eve

[Soldier_Of_God]

If you are raptured on Saturday at the Last Judgment, no doubt you will have your choice of cheesecake in the heavenly kingdom! If you are not raptured, you can still enjoy cheesecake until October 21st, the date of Armageddon.

It’s good to know if I miss one event, I can catch a later one.

 

[StAnastasia]

Will they post a video of the rapture on you tube? I can’t make it to America on Saturday…prior engagements.

John of Woking, if Harold camping is right, the rapture is coming to you in Woking, and in Guildford, and even in Bagshot!

 

[grannymh]

You have a penchant of misconstruing my intentions. I’ve never advocated a change to dogma. I am seeking a way to deal with polgenism within doctrine.

Either you have a particular doctrine as you said "I am seeking a way to deal with polgenism within doctrine.’ in post 155 or you …

If you are referring to doctrine in general…

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Either you have a particular doctrine as you said "I am seeking a way to deal with polgenism within doctrine.’ in post 155 or you …

If you are referring to doctrine in general…

I guess if I would boil down what I’m looking for, it would be how do we deal with polygenism from a Catholic apologetics standpoint? This may still be too broad a question to deal with in a forum.

 

[grannymh]

No.

Why not? Holy Mother Church says so.

Beyond that - sorry can’t be of any help

Supporting Holy Mother Church is the best kind of help.

 

[StAnastasia]

I guess if I would boil down what I’m looking for, it would be how do we deal with polygenism from a Catholic apologetics standpoint? This may still be too broad a question to deal with in a forum.

Soldier Of God, you could be a polygenist during the week (along with Catholic scientists) and then espouse monogenism on Sunday mornings during Mass. That might be a cognitive dissonance you could live with. We don’t to that in our parish, as the pastor and his associates and the laity are all polygenists, to the best of my knowledge. Two of the associates are professors in our seminary, and one of these publishes regularly on topics in the theological interpretation of science.

 

[grannymh]

I guess if I would boil down what I’m looking for, it would be how do we deal with polygenism from a Catholic apologetics standpoint? This may still be too broad a question to deal with in a forum.

Answer to Soldier of God question: how do we deal with polygenism from a Catholic apologetics standpoint?

One simply says that there are two, real, sole parents of all of humanity which is known as monogenism. Regarding the possibility of polygenism, there are lots of speculations without absolute, concrete evidence.

 

[razredge]

razredge, this is an interesting question, that raises the further question whether all organisms carrying human DNA have “immortal” souls, and only such organisms have “immortal” souls. For example, does a cancerous tumor have an immortal soul, and if so, is surgery to remove the tumor tantamount to murder? Some cancerous tumors began as the patient’s twin. If “ensoulment” occurs at the moment of conception, presumably the tumor has an immortal soul. I suppose the moral principle of double effect would say that as long as we are not killing the tumor directly, we are not committing murder; if we merely remove it to save the person’s life the destruction of the tumor is an unintended side effect.

StAnastasia

I would think anencephalic babies do not have souls, since they have no conscious existence at all - I think the soul is fundamentally linked to our consciousness, which is really what constitutes the Imagio Dei we share.
To me it seems like speciesm to think that souls are granted to us purely due to our human DNA.

 

[StAnastasia]

I would think anencephalic babies do not have souls, since they have no conscious existence at all - I think the soul is fundamentally linked to our consciousness, which is really what constitutes the Imagio Dei we share.
To me it seems like speciesm to think that souls are granted to us purely due to our human DNA.

razredge, yes, it is specieisism, and many Catholics are speciesist (some are racist and sexist as well). There is no coherent reason for ascribing immortal souls to all entities possessing human DNA and only to entities possessing human DNA.

 

[razredge]

Regarding my initial scan of " In the beginning…’ citations, kept finding a notice that the section I was looking for was omitted. When I locate the missing info, we can talk later.

Granny, I posted links to scans of that quote a few pages ago, which you yourself commented on and said you had no problem with.

 

[razredge]

razredge, yes, it is specieisism, and many Catholics are speciesist (some are racist and sexist as well). There is no coherent reason for ascribing immortal souls to all entities possessing human DNA and only to entities possessing human DNA.

Oh yes, I know all too well, unfortunately - there’s a thread on here on whether the Abrahamic religions worship the same God where some vehemently deny Church teaching that Muslims do - mainly because they want religion to support their Islamophobia.

Regarding your point regarding DNA and do tumours have souls’ I tend to agree.

It really comes down to how we make the distinction between what is a human being and what is not a human being - I don’t think DNA is a good criterion for this, for reasons you have described.

Really, the only thing that differentiates us from being just another animal is our conscious mind so for me the soul would have be intrinsically tied to this. It would seem strange to grant this to creatures like anencephalic babies who have no personal existence at all aside from a purely physical one as just living matter with human DNA much like a tumor as you have pointed out.

If people want to say that they are human while a tumour is not, only because they look more human - then I have trouble accepting that.

BTW Al/ Anastasia do you have any thoughts on whether the 50-100k year gap between anatomically modern humans evolving and behavioural modernity could suggest the emergence of the soul among humanity?

 

[buffalo]

Soldier of God, I am not as confident as you that that is all that is meant. There is as snide and sinister tone in her continuous insinuation that others – who are just as faithful in practice and devotion as she is – in sincerely discussing theology are trying to destroy the Catholic faith, or to undermine dogma.

StAnastasia

Oh give me a break. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. If there is an antagonist modernist in these forums you are #1.

 

[buffalo]

That raises an interesting question - do anencephalic babies have souls?

If alive a soul is present.

 

[buffalo]

Actually, while the Catechism says that souls are created “immediately” by God, it does not say that this means “at conception” or what “at conception” really would entail.

The word “conception” does not occur in the chapter “Man” (paragraphs 355 - 384).

Here science has actually helped show that a unique human being begins when the DNA is unique.

 

[buffalo]

razredge, this is an interesting question, that raises the further question whether all organisms carrying human DNA have “immortal” souls, and only such organisms have “immortal” souls. For example, does a cancerous tumor have an immortal soul, and if so, is surgery to remove the tumor tantamount to murder? Some cancerous tumors began as the patient’s twin. If “ensoulment” occurs at the moment of conception, presumably the tumor has an immortal soul. I suppose the moral principle of double effect would say that as long as we are not killing the tumor directly, we are not committing murder; if we merely remove it to save the person’s life the destruction of the tumor is an unintended side effect.

StAnastasia

Does the cancerous tumor have unique DNA?

 

[buffalo]

20-50% of all conceptions (depending on the factors one includes in the calculation) are flushed out of a woman’s body before she even knew she was pregnant. They are genetically incompatible with life. The interesting implication is that 20-50 % of humans enter eternity without ever having made a moral decision. Are they not subject to the Last Judgment, or if they are, are they given a pass straight to heaven?

Presumably they are innocent and are with God. It is important to remember that human life and suffering enhances our capacity for God.

 

[buffalo]

I would think anencephalic babies do not have souls, since they have no conscious existence at all - I think the soul is fundamentally linked to our consciousness, which is really what constitutes the Imagio Dei we share.
To me it seems like speciesm to think that souls are granted to us purely due to our human DNA.

The soul’s expression is limited by the brain and body. The soul being immaterial and immortal is the higher order. When we die the soul is freed of these constraints.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Soldier Of God, you could be a polygenist during the week (along with Catholic scientists) and then espouse monogenism on Sunday mornings during Mass. That might be a cognitive dissonance you could live with. We don’t to that in our parish, as the pastor and his associates and the laity are all polygenists, to the best of my knowledge. Two of the associates are professors in our seminary, and one of these publishes regularly on topics in the theological interpretation of science.

Unfortunately, I’m not remotely certified to comment or provide opinion on monogenism versus polygenism. Polygenesis theory abstracts are complex and I do not have the qualifications to properly assess the quantitative genetics theory behind them. If I have to practice cognitive dissonance in order to be Catholic, it would only serve to extenuate my faith. Coming from agnosticism years ago, I would *dread *to return to such a worldview. However, if having Catholic faith is intellectually untenable for me, it would be a probable recourse. The fact that even members of the clergy doubt or eschew doctrine is something I find deeply disturbing. I really have some thinking to do.

 

[razredge]

Here science has actually helped show that a unique human being begins when the DNA is unique.

Does the cancerous tumor have unique DNA?

That doesn’t make sense - do identical twins who have identical DNA share souls? Or is only one ensouled why the other isnt?

Would human clones have souls? I think they would

 

[buffalo]

That doesn’t make sense - do identical twins who have identical DNA share souls? Or is only one ensouled why the other isnt?

Would human clones have souls? I think they would

Identical twins do not have identical DNA.