Modern rabbinic Judaism, Deut.13:1-5 and Yeshua

[Nickkname]

Considering that the Messiah will hereld in the Messianiac Age, what is left to phrophesy about. Also,even if what you say is correct, it does not lead to the conclusion that Jesus was a prophet. But if you have a source for the belief that the Messiah will be a prophet, I’d like to see it.

From HashemEchad’s signature: simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#2

 

[Valke2]

Let’s put aside the issue of whether he was descended from King David.

He was not a great political leader. He did not observe the commandments, he was far from a great military leader and rather than win battles for Israel against the Romans, he was murdered by them without much fanfare. Jesus wasn’t a great judge for Israel.

Also, assuming for arguments sake that Jesus was God, this would disqualify him from being Messiah.

He did not restore the Jewish people to Israel. Quite the contrary if as a christian you believe that his actions resulted in teh destrution of the Temple and the following diaspora.

He did not establish a government for all the jews and for all the gentiles.
He did not establish Jewish law as the law of the land.

he did not rebuild the Temple.

I don’t need you to give me your reasons why you believe Jesus did all these things. I’ve heard them dozens of times and they carry no weight for me. You asked why we don’t believe he was the Messiah, I gave you a few reasons.

 

[Nickkname]

Let’s put aside the issue of whether he was descended from King David.

He was not a great political leader. He did not observe the commandments, he was far from a great military leader and rather than win battles for Israel against the Romans, he was murdered by them without much fanfare. Jesus wasn’t a great judge for Israel.

Also, assuming for arguments sake that Jesus was God, this would disqualify him from being Messiah.

He did not restore the Jewish people to Israel. Quite the contrary if as a christian you believe that his actions resulted in teh destrution of the Temple and the following diaspora.

He did not establish a government for all the jews and for all the gentiles.
He did not establish Jewish law as the law of the land.

he did not rebuild the Temple.

I don’t need you to give me your reasons why you believe Jesus did all these things. I’ve heard them dozens of times and they carry no weight for me. You asked why we don’t believe he was the Messiah, I gave you a few reasons.

Thank you for the reasons.

 

[Valke2]

From HashemEchad’s signature: simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#2

The link Hashemechad posts says that prophecy can only exist when Israel is inhabited by the majority of jews. This was not the case in Jesus’ time, and he therefore could not be a prophet.

It is unclear from the website whether the Messiah will be a prophet. But if so, he will only prophesize when the Jews return to Israel.

 

[HashemEchad]

The link Hashemechad posts says that prophecy can only exist when Israel is inhabited by the majority of jews. This was not the case in Jesus’ time, and he therefore could not be a prophet.

It is unclear from the website whether the Messiah will be a prophet. But if so, he will only prophesize when the Jews return to Israel.

I don’t think all Jews believe Messiah will be a prophet; Judaism is not like Christianity where everyone must believe exactly the same thing, except on the fundamental beliefs like the oneness of God (its funny this arose, because my doctor–who is also a religious Jew-- and I were discussing this just yesterday!)

As for Jesus, one prophecy he did not fulfill (the most glaring one, to me) is that the coming of the Messiah would usher in a world of universal peace.

Have we seen a world of universal peace along the lines of Isaiah 11:6-9 since Jesus came? Quite the contrary, in fact the religion he is the focus of, in history, has caused much bloodshed to take place against those who did not belong to their religion.

But he also did not fulfill parts of Matthew 24, in which he spoke of the End of Days, and said, “this generation (the people he was speaking to) will not pass until all be fulfilled” (yet I’m sure the people he said that to have since died.)

 

[Nickkname]

Funny. You’re intrpreting Christian prophesies without actually getting to know what Jesus really meant. Good job.

 

[HashemEchad]

Funny. You’re intrpreting Christian prophesies without actually getting to know what Jesus really meant. Good job.

I’ve read the NT through several times in my life, I’m quite familiar with it. In order to be a countermissionary and an exit counselor, I had to become very familiar with the religious texts of cults, missionaries and all other nonJewish groups.

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t think all Jews believe Messiah will be a prophet;

what other options are there? poltician fits?

As for Jesus, one prophecy he did not fulfill (the most glaring one, to me) is that the coming of the Messiah would usher in a world of universal peace.

 

[HashemEchad]

what other options are there? poltician fits?

 

[Ed_Rand]

inJESUS;3789238:

The true Messiah, when he comes, will be able to do it.

This is one reason why we know Jesus wasn’t it. There has not been universal peace since he came, quite the opposite.

That is actually the best argument against Jesus being the Messiah.

You have been pointing to the fact that Jesus was familiar enough with all the Jewish texts that he could verbally plagiarize at will. Why is it he had a different understanding of the Messiah than you and other Jews? If he knew that the Jews were expecting a political Messiah, why would he even bother? In fact he says the opposite,
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.”–Matthew 10:11

Why is there no mention of anyone ever calling him out on all the issues you raise about him not fullfilling the requirements of the Messiah as Jews understood it at the time?

 

[jdnrite01]

You speak of the “transfiguration” as if it historically happened. Only Christians believe it happened, and the only evidence it did is the NT, a religious work accepted only by Christians.

The NT evidence of the actual occurrence of the Transfiguration isn’t hearsay and it’s stronger than you seem to acknowledge. St. Peter, one of the three Apostles to view the event, wrote about it in 2 Peter 1:16-18 which states:

16 We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.”
18 We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain.

St. John the Evangelist, another witness, likewise alludes to the Transfiguration at John 1:14:

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

Taken at face value, these two statements provide powerful prima facie evidence of the historical truth of the event, and thus, proof of the Messianic Christ.

 

[jdnrite01]

As for Jesus, one prophecy he did not fulfill (the most glaring one, to me) is that the coming of the Messiah would usher in a world of universal peace.

Have we seen a world of universal peace along the lines of Isaiah 11:6-9 since Jesus came? Quite the contrary, in fact the religion he is the focus of, in history, has caused much bloodshed to take place against those who did not belong to their religion.

But he also did not fulfill parts of Matthew 24, in which he spoke of the End of Days, and said, “this generation (the people he was speaking to) will not pass until all be fulfilled” (yet I’m sure the people he said that to have since died.)

You don’t understand Catholic Eschatology beliefs. Christ will usher in a period of universal peace, and it was a constant theme of St. Paul as he stated, for example, in Romans 11:25-29:

25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Bringing about the “Kingdom of God” is a primary function of the Church, one that is ongoing until Christ returns in triumph.

(Parenthetically, I wanted to note that the above-quoted provision from Romans underlies the traditional Catholic Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews. That prayer doesn’t amount to an intention to engage in prostheletizing individual Jews. Rather, its eschatological in that it is a prayer directed to God to unite all humanity as will occur during the Endtimes. To that extent, the anti-Catholic polemics concerning the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass fundamentally missed the point entirely, but that is another matter entirely.)

 

[inJESUS]

He must be God to be able to change hearts and minds and make all conflicting people whether because of religion or race or money and power - to be actually the peak of peacefulness as if a change of heart and mind and nature occured. Only God can do this.

This is one reason why we know Jesus wasn’t it. There has not been universal peace since he came, quite the opposite.

actually we have a different interpretation. We have interpretations and deeds, not just words… Your interpretation makes sense only if the Messiah is God bringing another Eden on earth by changing humans into Adam and Eve before the fall. Your Utopea works if God did it…but a utopea achieved by a human among humans seeking power, money, natural resources, petrol , gaz , oil , water, commerce, touristic sites in addition to humans whose goal in life is to die for their deity and kill all Jews, in addition non-Jews sitting on your temple, in addition to may other points makes your Eden on earth an impossibility unless the Messiah is God who will change everything.

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad;3791294:

You have been pointing to the fact that Jesus was familiar enough with all the Jewish texts that he could verbally plagiarize at will. Why is it he had a different understanding of the Messiah than you and other Jews? If he knew that the Jews were expecting a political Messiah, why would he even bother? In fact he says the opposite,
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.”–Matthew 10:11

Why is there no mention of anyone ever calling him out on all the issues you raise about him not fullfilling the requirements of the Messiah as Jews understood it at the time?

Because he was a Jewish heretic? But you won’t accept that possibility, of course.

Just because someone is Jewish, and knows what Judaism teaches, does not make them a 100%, fully observant Jew.

As for supposedly there being no record of anyone calling him out on all these issues…remember that the NT was written by CHRISTIANS. It reads to me like a 1st century informercial for a new religion, struggling to establish itself and prove itself.

When you see a late-night infomercial for a new product, do you ever wonder why they never say anything BAD about the product? Of course they won’t, because they want you to BUY it.

A new religion and its followers works the same way. No new religion, trying to gain adherents, is going to willingly tell you the bad about their religion, otherwise you might not join it!

Always keep in mind that the NT was composed BY people with an agenda…so it is natural they will only report the good and not the bad.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Because he was a Jewish heretic? But you won’t accept that possibility, of course.

Then why didn’t they show him the list of things he was to accomplish to refute him?

A new religion and its followers works the same way. No new religion, trying to gain adherents, is going to willingly tell you the bad about their religion, otherwise you might not join it!

Always keep in mind that the NT was composed BY people with an agenda…so it is natural they will only report the good and not the bad.

But they did report the bad! Jesus was saying to Jews at that time, “Hey, I’m the Messiah, but it’s not what you expected.” The Gospel writers had no reason to leave out some instance where this was contested by the Jews of his day. And since the Gospel writers were Jews and were familiar with what was expected at that time (much more than you do), it makes no sense why they didn’t address it or relate some story about how Jesus rebuked a pharisee on these points. This would have helped their case, not hurt it. My guess is that Jews hadn’t codified these things into neat little checklists until after Jesus.

 

[Sepharad]

Then why didn’t they show him the list of things he was to accomplish to refute him?

They most likely did…but the writers of the NT chose not to include it for obvious reasons.

Just as they listed Jeconiah in Joseph’s lineage, then realized their mistake in so doing (because in Jeremiah 23 we learn that God cursed Jeconiah so that none of his ancestry would sit on the Davidic throne)…so in Titus and 1 Timothy, they warned new Christians to avoid discussing genealogies (because they knew a CAREFUL study of the genealogy of Jesus would show he could not possibly be the Jewish Messiah.)

 

[Ed_Rand]

They most likely did…but the writers of the NT chose not to include it for obvious reasons.

I don’t see these obvious reasons. Jesus and his disciples and any Jew of the time knew what was to be expected–according to you. How come he was never asked to explain himself? Any explanation He gave could only have helped the case.

Just as they listed Jeconiah in Joseph’s lineage, then realized their mistake in so doing (because in Jeremiah 23 we learn that God cursed Jeconiah so that none of his ancestry would sit on the Davidic throne)…so in Titus and 1 Timothy, they warned new Christians to avoid discussing genealogies (because they knew a CAREFUL study of the genealogy of Jesus would show he could not possibly be the Jewish Messiah.)

I saw this earlier on one of Kaninchen’s web links. Interesting. I have yet to look into it. I’m sure I’ll find something to argue about!!!

 

[Sepharad]

I don’t see these obvious reasons. Jesus and his disciples and any Jew of the time knew what was to be expected–according to you. How come he was never asked to explain himself? Any explanation He gave could only have helped the case.

He probably was asked to explain himself, and since the writers of the NT were looking to portray their new faith in a good light always, why would they give the account of what happened if Jesus were unable to refute them? And if he did refute them successfully, surely they would have written about it to make him look to truly be the messiah.

 

[Eden]

I’ve read the NT through several times in my life, I’m quite familiar with it. In order to be a countermissionary and an exit counselor, I had to become very familiar with the religious texts of cults, missionaries and all other nonJewish groups.

And you weren’t awed by the Sermon on the Mount? I can’t imagine not being moved by something so profound and beautiful.

 

[Eden]

Ed Rand;3792140:

Because he was a Jewish heretic? But you won’t accept that possibility, of course.

Just because someone is Jewish, and knows what Judaism teaches, does not make them a 100%, fully observant Jew.

As for supposedly there being no record of anyone calling him out on all these issues…remember that the NT was written by CHRISTIANS. It reads to me like a 1st century informercial for a new religion, struggling to establish itself and prove itself.

When you see a late-night infomercial for a new product, do you ever wonder why they never say anything BAD about the product? Of course they won’t, because they want you to BUY it.

A new religion and its followers works the same way. No new religion, trying to gain adherents, is going to willingly tell you the bad about their religion, otherwise you might not join it!

Always keep in mind that the NT was composed BY people with an agenda…so it is natural they will only report the good and not the bad.

That’s really an odd explanation for the underground growth of Christianity in the first three to four centuries. The earliest Christian martyrs didn’t die for Scriptures, as the Bible Canon was not set for almost 4 centuries. In fact, many people were illiterate at the time and let’s not forget what a long and arduous process reproducing a book at that time would entail. It’s hard to believe that the first disciples set about to write a clever, infomercial book to convince the crowds to convert, crowds who may not even be able to read and… what a cost to create such a propaganda piece. It’s hard to imagine they had the time to organize such a feat, all while hiding in worship in catacombs and running from the authorities for fear of death.

No, this is an entirely farcical rendering of history! More than anything, it was the witness of the piety and sacrifice in the name of Jesus Christ by His believers that drew others to Christianity.

St. Stephen, Sts. Perpetua and Felicity, St. Lawrence,
St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Agatha, St. Sebastian, St. Appollonia, St. Venantius and St. Polycarp are just a few of the early Christian martyrs whose witness to faith moved others to conversion.