K
Kaninchen
Guest
What’s to discuss?Kanichen and HashemEchad, when both of you are done chit-chating with one another, I’ll be in the break room enjoying a cup of coffee until your ready to discuss.
:coffeeread:
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K
Kaninchen
Guest
It’s all just self-referential, isn’t it?What you don’t grasp is the first Christians, who were all Jews, witnessed to the Jews first, and later the gentiles. They didnt have to “find” Yeshua in the scriptures. They walked with him, and in addition to their own eyewitness accounts, they proved he was Messiah from the scriptures.
L
Lev23
Guest
Your Messiah, Yeshua, who is the Glory of Israel and Light to the gentiles, foretold by your prophets.What’s to discuss?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Not a lot to talk about then.Your Messiah, Yeshua, who is the Glory of Israel and Light to the gentiles, foretold by your prophets.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
OK, let me rephrase it: IF Jesus truly spoke the words as recorded in the NT, then he was guilty of plagiarism, which is stealing the thoughts and sayings of others.I agree, it’s a bit like saying ‘Gandalf stole words’ or ‘Harry Potter stole words’ - Jesus’ ‘life’ and words are the constructs of the authors of the texts.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
One correction I just wanted to make, if you don’t mind: Adam did not say to Eve that they were forbidden to touch the fruit. Eve said that to the serpent.13:1 “Everything that I command you: yo ushall be watchful to do it. You shall not add onto it, and you shall not subtract from it.”
And so here we have come full circle from the Garden of Eden story, in which Adam apparently adds to the commandment of God by telling Eve they are prohibited from touching the tree. This is one of the most important commandments, since it affects all other commandments.
13:2-4 "When a prophet or one who has a dream will get up among you and will give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you – saying, ‘Let’s go after other gods,’ whom you haven’t known, ‘and let’s serve them’ – will come to pass, you shall not listen to that prophet’s words or to that one who has the dream, because Hashem, your God, is testing you, to know whether youare loving Hashem your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:5 You shall go after Hashem, your God, and you shall fear Him, and you shall observe His commandments and listen to His voice, and serve Him.
This is pretty clear. Observe the commandments. It doesn’t say anything about abandoning them.
Carry on!
H
HashemEchad
Guest
They “found” him in the Tanakh because they wanted to.What you don’t grasp is the first Christians, who were all Jews, witnessed to the Jews first, and later the gentiles. They didnt have to “find” Yeshua in the scriptures. They walked with him, and in addition to their own eyewitness accounts, they proved he was Messiah from the scriptures.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Jesus **violated **
Jewish Law and taught his followers to do the same. He told them to do something on the Sabbath that the Pharisees condemned him for doing.
Judaism has ALWAYS taught that it is not only permissible but COMMANDED to break the Sabbath to save human life
H
HashemEchad
Guest
so what’s the problem?
V
Valke2
Guest
Right. I did say “apparently” told her. Because it is possible that Eve, rather than making that part up, simply told the serpent what Adam told her.One correction I just wanted to make, if you don’t mind: Adam did not say to Eve that they were forbidden to touch the fruit. Eve said that to the serpent.
Carry on!
I
inJESUS
Guest
what about David and his followers doing the same and in the temple? in the presence of God? was he breaking the law?
does the law prohibit you from eating if you are hungry on the sabbath?
is it written in the Bible that stealing includes not stating the source of your speech or is it an interpretation of someone? because Jesus was not the only one in the NT not to apply this “law”.As for which of the Ten Commandments Jesus violated when he copied original teachings of other rabbis without giving due credit, that would be Thou shalt not steal.
V
Valke2
Guest
David plucked grain in the Temple? (that was built after he died?).HashemEchad;3755053 said:what about David and his followers doing the same and in the temple? in the presence of God? was he breaking the law?
I
inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS;3755704:
didn’t David and his soldiers, when fleeing from Saul, take and eat of the bread in the house of God ?David plucked grain in the Temple? (that was built after he died?).
So the priest gave him holy bread, for no other bread was on hand except the showbread which had been removed from the LORD’S presence and replaced by fresh bread when it was taken away.
V
Valke2
Guest
Valke2;3755845:
and replaced by fresh bread when it was taken away.inJESUS;3755704:
didn’t David and his soldiers, when fleeing from Saul, take and eat of the bread in the house of God ?
So the priest gave him holy bread, for no other bread was on hand except the showbread which had been removed from the LORD’S presence
Ok. BUt it couldn’t be from THE Temple. There’s no indication in the Gospel that JEsus plucking grain on sabbath was a matter of life or death. As opposed to feeding men fleeing from an army.
I
inJESUS
Guest
[/QUOTE]
He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was **in need **and he and his companions were hungry?
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples **were hungry **and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
do you believe that if you are very hungry on a sabbath, you better starve than break it?
V
Valke2
Guest
and he and his companions were hungry?
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples **were hungry **and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
do you believe that if you are very hungry on a sabbath, you better starve than break it?
David and his men were facing death from a pursuing army. Jesus and his men were facing what? When was the last time they ate?
I
inJESUS
Guest
There was a very good reason why Hashem put Deut. 13 in the Torah: He knew that times would come (and indeed were happening then, as in ancient Egypt), when nonJewish cults would use “miracles” to try to deceive the Jewish people.
so why God say Joel 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;And your sons and daughters will prophesy,**Your old men will dream dreams **Your young men will see visions.
I
inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS;3756049:
where did God put degrees of hunger or comparisons between situations? where did God say you cannot eat if you are hungry?
where did God say you cannot save a man who fell in a ditch on sabbath because he surely will not die till tomorrow?
should the sabbath be a burden or a mercy from God according to you?
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
HaShem,
I agree most of what Jesus taught was not new to Judaism, I wouldn’t go as far as to call it plagerism though.
I agree most of what Jesus taught was not new to Judaism, I wouldn’t go as far as to call it plagerism though.
V
Valke2
Guest
Valke2;3756067:
inJESUS;3756049:
Valke2;3755972 said:where did God put degrees of hunger or comparisons between situations? where did God say you cannot eat if you are hungry?
where did God say you cannot save a man who fell in a ditch on sabbath because he surely will not die till tomorrow?LIke everyone else, Jesus had plenty of time to prepare for the Sabbath. There is an overriding principle, as you know, that most commandments must be violated if it is necessary to preserve life. Going hungry on Sabbath doesn’t fall under this rule. To harvest grain on sabbath is a violation. It is not difficult. And pointing to David eating bread set aside for the priests/God when his men were fleeing death doesn’t change that.
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