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cestusdei
Guest
I would think you would want to get the quran right. Why not then let the scholars do there work? Be not afraid.
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Shadowcry
Guest
Wouldn’t affect me.
Btw, is Jesus a historical person to you? Would it matter if he did certain things or not such as miracles?
Btw, is Jesus a historical person to you? Would it matter if he did certain things or not such as miracles?
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PepeRoni
Guest
Well I bid these scholars good luck in their work. As long as they don’t draw cartoons they really shouldn’t have to go into hiding I would think.
Well as the bible (and common sense) tells us, a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, by their fruits we shall know them etc.
Taking into account the so-called bogus nature of the article, what purpose would “revisiting” the koran be? Any “breakthroughs” in this regard would be for Western consumption. Those “scholars” would be banned from muslim countries, under constant threat of a fatwa on their heads, and we’d hear a steady stream about how it is all a jewish conspiracy to defame islam (yet when muslims riot, kill and destroy property over a cartoon this doesn’t defame islam). Heck, the “scholar” could set foot on the wrong college campus and an insulted muslim might try to run him down in a rental car. Doesn’t seem to be worth the exersize
littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19511_UNC-Chapel_Hill_Attack_Motive-_Islamic_Rage
anyone else a cynic?
Well as the bible (and common sense) tells us, a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, by their fruits we shall know them etc.
Taking into account the so-called bogus nature of the article, what purpose would “revisiting” the koran be? Any “breakthroughs” in this regard would be for Western consumption. Those “scholars” would be banned from muslim countries, under constant threat of a fatwa on their heads, and we’d hear a steady stream about how it is all a jewish conspiracy to defame islam (yet when muslims riot, kill and destroy property over a cartoon this doesn’t defame islam). Heck, the “scholar” could set foot on the wrong college campus and an insulted muslim might try to run him down in a rental car. Doesn’t seem to be worth the exersize
littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19511_UNC-Chapel_Hill_Attack_Motive-_Islamic_Rage
anyone else a cynic?
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Ive heard that the English translation of the Qur’an is softened up a bit from the original Arabic text. Im wondering if this is true, was it intentional to appeal to the western mindset?
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PepeRoni
Guest
I think a lot of the “smite the infidels” talk, beheadings, and that part about talking rocks telling muslims that jews are hiding behind them, come kill them didn’t go over well in the Western focus-groups.
Although that may be from the hadith I’m talking about and not Koran, sometimes I get confused.
Although that may be from the hadith I’m talking about and not Koran, sometimes I get confused.
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Shadowcry
Guest
Have you read the Koran with a muslim guide? And trying to prove a religion’s false from talking about its holy book is futile.
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estesbob
Guest
It is difficult for those of us grounded in Christianity to make sense out of the Quaran, That is beacues we use the Bible as a template to read it. The problem is that the Quaran is not Chronological-other than the first book it the books are in order of length-the longest first leading to the last book, which is the shortest. This set up makes it very, very hard to get the context the book was written in.
I am rather torn between the two views of Islam i see, the vilolent, rioting Muslims I see on TV as compared to the God feraing peaceful Muslim frieds I have.
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freedomm
Guest
You would have been in more confusing situation and torn if you were born and lived during Papacy’s rule in Europe’s Dark Ages.
Do you know how the West got rid of Papacy’s rule and seperated the Church from the state affairs?
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PepeRoni
Guest
I have plenty of guides.
- the ones who get on tv and riot over cartoons
- the ones who issue death threats when westerners dare enjoy their freedoms in their own country
- the ones who wear Osama Bin Laden T-shirts as US soldiers are distributing aid to them after a tsunami
- the preachers promising 70 virgins to murderers
- those dancing in the streets in the “West Bank” on Sept 11th
- those who call Jews relatives of pigs and monkeys
- those who refuse to allow Churches and Synagogues to be build in Saudi Arabia
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freedomm
Guest
Hello to all:
atrueword.com/index.php/article/articleview/43/1/3
It also allows to email the whole article/debate to your friends.
Here I will just qoute the conclusions of the article and the debate, the author of that article had:
Conclusion [of the Debate]:
"
Een/Ayn" means “eyes, physical sight, insight, luster” or “spring” in Arabic, Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic.“Grape” or “raisin” is not found in ANY Lexicon or even a single verse of the Bible. It is the invention of Luxenberg parroted all over the internet by his pathetic fan Dr. Heger who in turn taught it to a cowardly Iranian by the pen-name **“Ibn Warraq”. **
Over all conclusion:
The evidence has been presented clearly and the lies refuted. Now the onus of proof remains on the shoulders of the aforementioned 3 Stooges.
For details: atrueword.com/index.php/article/articleview/43/1/3
It also allows to email the whole article/debate to your friends.
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Ella
Guest
I wasn’t born during Europe’s Dark Ages. I’m here right now and I’m scared.
I fail to see how a situation 1000 years ago (give or take a few hundred) give the actions of Islamic terrorists today legitimacy. Or were you participating in a Tu Quoque? Methinks so.
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freedomm
Guest
Dear Ella:
How about if you were a child among the Madianites or a virgin girl in the days of Moses and God of the Bible ordered very strange thing:
Book Of Numbers- Chapter 31
The Madianites are slain for having drawn the people of Israel into sin. The dividing of the booty.
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
2 Revenge first the children of Israel on the Madianites, and so thou shalt be gathered to thy people.
3 And Moses forthwith said: Arm of you men to fight, who may take the revenge of the Lord on the Madianites.
4 Let a thousand men be chosen out of every tribe of Israel to be sent to the war.
5 **And they gave a thousand of every tribe, that is to say, twelve thousand men well appointed for battle. **
6 And Moses sent them with Phinees the son of Eleazar the priest, and he delivered to him the holy vessels, and the trumpets to sound.
7 And when they had fought against the Madianites and had overcome them, they slew all the men.
8 And their kings Evi, and Recem, and Sur, and Hur, and Rebe, five princes of the nation: Balaam also the son of Beer they killed with the sword.
9 And they took their women, and their children captives, and all their cattle, and all their goods: and all their possessions they plundered:
10 **And all their cities, and their villages, and castles, they burned. **
11 And they carried away the booty, and all that they had taken both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought them to Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and to all the multitude of the children of Israel. But the rest of the things for use they carried to the camp on the plains of Moab, beside the Jordan over against Jericho.
13 And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the princes of the synagogue went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses being angry with the chief officers of the army, the tribunes, and the centurions that were come from the battle,
15 Said: Why have you saved the women? **
16 Are not these they, that deceived the children of Israel by the counsel of Balaam, and made you transgress against the Lord by the sin of Phogor, for which also the people was punished?
17 ** Therefore kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children: and put to death the women, that have carnally known men.
18 But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:
19 And stay without the camp seven days. He that hath killed a man, or touched one that is killed, shall be purified the third day and the seventh day.
20 **And of all the spoil, every garment, or vessel, or any thing made for use, of the skins, or hair of goats, or of wood, shall be purified. **
Douay Rheims Bible
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=4&ch=31&l=18&f=s#x ]
Question: How those killers/revengers would know if you are really a virgin, if you were a girl among the Midianites?
How about of you were a Jew (among God’s choosen one) and lived in Christian terrorist Adolf Hitler’s Germany, not too long ago?
Or How about if you were a Jew and lived in Bosnia and Serb Christains terrorists mistook you as a Muslim because of your circumcision, just a decade ago?
How about if you were an Iraqi innocent Christian and lived in Iraq couple of years ago and all of a sudden Daisy Cutter bomb of Christian coalition forces was dropped blindly on your family thousands of feet above the ground?
. . . .The Madianites are slain for having drawn the people of Israel into sin. The dividing of the booty.
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
2 Revenge first the children of Israel on the Madianites, and so thou shalt be gathered to thy people.
3 And Moses forthwith said: Arm of you men to fight, who may take the revenge of the Lord on the Madianites.
4 Let a thousand men be chosen out of every tribe of Israel to be sent to the war.
5 **And they gave a thousand of every tribe, that is to say, twelve thousand men well appointed for battle. **
6 And Moses sent them with Phinees the son of Eleazar the priest, and he delivered to him the holy vessels, and the trumpets to sound.
7 And when they had fought against the Madianites and had overcome them, they slew all the men.
8 And their kings Evi, and Recem, and Sur, and Hur, and Rebe, five princes of the nation: Balaam also the son of Beer they killed with the sword.
9 And they took their women, and their children captives, and all their cattle, and all their goods: and all their possessions they plundered:
10 **And all their cities, and their villages, and castles, they burned. **
11 And they carried away the booty, and all that they had taken both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought them to Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and to all the multitude of the children of Israel. But the rest of the things for use they carried to the camp on the plains of Moab, beside the Jordan over against Jericho.
13 And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the princes of the synagogue went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses being angry with the chief officers of the army, the tribunes, and the centurions that were come from the battle,
15 Said: Why have you saved the women? **
16 Are not these they, that deceived the children of Israel by the counsel of Balaam, and made you transgress against the Lord by the sin of Phogor, for which also the people was punished?
17 ** Therefore kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children: and put to death the women, that have carnally known men.
18 But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:
19 And stay without the camp seven days. He that hath killed a man, or touched one that is killed, shall be purified the third day and the seventh day.
20 **And of all the spoil, every garment, or vessel, or any thing made for use, of the skins, or hair of goats, or of wood, shall be purified. **
Douay Rheims Bible
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=4&ch=31&l=18&f=s#x ]
Question: How those killers/revengers would know if you are really a virgin, if you were a girl among the Midianites?
How about of you were a Jew (among God’s choosen one) and lived in Christian terrorist Adolf Hitler’s Germany, not too long ago?
Or How about if you were a Jew and lived in Bosnia and Serb Christains terrorists mistook you as a Muslim because of your circumcision, just a decade ago?
How about if you were an Iraqi innocent Christian and lived in Iraq couple of years ago and all of a sudden Daisy Cutter bomb of Christian coalition forces was dropped blindly on your family thousands of feet above the ground?
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Ella
Guest
More tu quoque. How about if you were a Christian in Saudi Arabia caught attending a hidden Mass?
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freedomm
Guest
Dear Ella:
Few points to be remembered when you raise such issue(s):
First, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and not an ideal Islamic Caliphate. Monarchy and Caliphate are opposites. Any Monarchy usually come into existence through mischeivious/dictatorial ways.
On the other hand Caliphate system is based on theo-democracy and it’s chief–the Caliph–is elected by the people.
I am sure you know how the House of Saud captured Arabia and with whose external help it is still in power and enjoying his heydays.
Second, just like every other country in the world has it’s unique rules, regulations and conditions for visas/entry into it’s territory, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia too has it’s own rules/regulations/conditions.
And those expatriates who go there to work to make more money than their own home countries, before embarking on Saudi’s soil, they are asked to agree on certain conditions. If any expatriate disagree with the conditions then he is not forced by the Saudis to come and work for them. He can simply say: no, and he doesn’t have to go to Saudi Arabia. It is as simple as that.
Third, if someone went to Saudi Arabia, after signing the agreement and agreeing with all the conditions required by the Kingdom’s rules that he will abide them and respect the will and culture of his host’s citizens, and then if he broke his own signed agreement, he is guilty not only in the eyes of Kingdom’s official but his God also if he is a religious person. So he is actually guilty on two counts and not just one:
1. Guilty for breaking the host’s requirement/conditions.
If a state is based on purely Islamic laws and it’s system of governnent is an ideal Caliphate, then if this state does not allow it’s non-Muslim citizens/expatriates to pray/conduct their religious meetings as per their faith, then and then only your objection is valid.
And for your kind information, in Islamic law, all of her citizens are allowed to pray/perform their prayers according to their ways provided that they respect country’s collective comon criminal code and maintain peace and tranquility.
Unfortunately Saudi Arabia is Muslim country but not an Islamic. It’s 100% population is Muslim but the Monarchy under which Saudis are forced to live, is not Islamic.
So, in other words, the objection you raised in your post is non-sense because you don’t even know to who your objection should be directed because you don’t know the difference between the two distinct terms Islam and the Muslims.
On the other hand, when Papacy was ruling Europe, her government was based on her Catholic theology and as her Catechism, Papacy’s magisterium is under the “guidance” of Holy Spirit and she makes no mistakes. Thus all actions of Papacy can rightfully be taken/labelled as **Christain actions ** thus what Papacy did with the “Choosen people of God (Jews)” is a Christian mistake. Here you cannot say: “well, it was Papact’s mistake and not Catholicism”. Well, you are wrong, thats why your Church had to reverse partially her view/stance towards the Jews after 1500 years on Church’s behalf and not on some specific Popes’ behalf.
- Guilty for breaking his own agreement in the eyes of his God because when he was signing the agreement his God was a witness too, unless if he believes that he can decieve his own God or believes in God who is dead and not seeing him.
If a state is based on purely Islamic laws and it’s system of governnent is an ideal Caliphate, then if this state does not allow it’s non-Muslim citizens/expatriates to pray/conduct their religious meetings as per their faith, then and then only your objection is valid.
And for your kind information, in Islamic law, all of her citizens are allowed to pray/perform their prayers according to their ways provided that they respect country’s collective comon criminal code and maintain peace and tranquility.
Unfortunately Saudi Arabia is Muslim country but not an Islamic. It’s 100% population is Muslim but the Monarchy under which Saudis are forced to live, is not Islamic.
So, in other words, the objection you raised in your post is non-sense because you don’t even know to who your objection should be directed because you don’t know the difference between the two distinct terms Islam and the Muslims.
On the other hand, when Papacy was ruling Europe, her government was based on her Catholic theology and as her Catechism, Papacy’s magisterium is under the “guidance” of Holy Spirit and she makes no mistakes. Thus all actions of Papacy can rightfully be taken/labelled as **Christain actions ** thus what Papacy did with the “Choosen people of God (Jews)” is a Christian mistake. Here you cannot say: “well, it was Papact’s mistake and not Catholicism”. Well, you are wrong, thats why your Church had to reverse partially her view/stance towards the Jews after 1500 years on Church’s behalf and not on some specific Popes’ behalf.
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onesimplemind
Guest
So what is an Islamic country?
The Taliban controlled Afghanistan?
The Taliban controlled Afghanistan?
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freedomm
Guest
Good question, onesimplemind.
Islamic country is a country:
1. whose 100% or atleast majority of her population is Muslim and
At the present there is no Islamic country in the world, On the contrary there are many Muslim countries (Muslim countries, means whose 100% population is either Muslim or the majority, BUT none has Islamic Caliphate System based on the Pattern of Prophethood) thus they are not Islamic countries.)
- it’s law is based on **Caliphate System on the Pattern of Prophethood.**It means based on the Holy Quran and the Authentic Sunnah of the Final and Last Messenger of God (PBUH).
Caliphate System is a **Theo-Democracy ** and not Monarchy or Western/non-Western democracy.
At the present there is no Islamic country in the world, On the contrary there are many Muslim countries (Muslim countries, means whose 100% population is either Muslim or the majority, BUT none has Islamic Caliphate System based on the Pattern of Prophethood) thus they are not Islamic countries.)
As far Taliban of Afghansitan, their form of government in the initial stage was more of their tribal/Afghan culture and less of Islam.
In Islam there is no room for tribal, cultural or racial distinction. But you have to give credit to the Talibans/Mujahideen for whatever good they did, if you keep in mind their history and the battle they fought with Russia with the help of America and other Western countries (not to mention how Afghan Mujahideen were invited in the White House of American by the then President, Reagon, and were honoured ) and the devastation brought by the Russian invasion.
When Taliban came into the power to restore peace, they did not inherit an Afghanistan in a silver plate. It was mostly a destroyed country. Thus it was a big challenge for Talibans and, second, most countries stopped their help/helping hands and did not recognise them. If they were given good enough time to build their country, it was highly likely that they could have set a good example because they were not power hungry but people of principle and simply wanted to maintain peace and follow their religion and mind their own business.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Abraham Geiger, Judaism And Islam (English Translation Of Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume aufgenommen?), 1970, Ktav Publishing House Inc., New York
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall, The Original Sources Of The Qur’ân, 1905, Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London
The Bible and the Qur’an. Jacques Jomier.
answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/
answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html
debate.org.uk/info/sitemap.htm
answering-islam.org/L_c-on-i.html
The Quran & the Bible in the Light of History & Science (Paperback)
by William F. Campbell
farsinet.com/ici/ici_bookstore.html
Is the Qur’an Infallible?
Order Number VB 4009 E
available from:
Light of Life, P.O.Box 13, A-9503 Villach, Austria
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall, The Original Sources Of The Qur’ân, 1905, Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London
The Bible and the Qur’an. Jacques Jomier.
answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/
answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html
debate.org.uk/info/sitemap.htm
answering-islam.org/L_c-on-i.html
The Quran & the Bible in the Light of History & Science (Paperback)
by William F. Campbell
farsinet.com/ici/ici_bookstore.html
Abdallah Abd al-FadiIs the Qur’an Infallible?
Order Number VB 4009 E
available from:
Light of Life, P.O.Box 13, A-9503 Villach, Austria
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inJESUS
Guest
estesbob, i assume you know arabic, am i correct? let me know coz i got a book in arabic for you to read.thx
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inJESUS
Guest
correct, the french ones as well…
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onesimplemind
Guest
You also forgot to include that the last Caliphate was the Ottoman Empire which ended in 1924.
The Ottoman Empire was directly responsible for the Armenian Genocide.Several million Armenians were murdered at the hands of an Islamic Caliphate.
So when you define a true Islamic country, do not forget to include that Islamic countries, by your defintition, have a proven history in persecuting and slaughtering non-Muslims for whatever reason.
Unless, of course, you deny that the Armenian Genocide happened and it is the result of a Zionist conspiracy.
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