Modernizing the Hail Mary

[jazzy_987]

Actually, the “vous” form in the Our Father is not actually the plural, but rather the formal, same as in the Hail Mary. That was the old way that I learned. Sadly, in that case the “updated” version seems to have taken over.

Ooops, I meant to say formal, but I was thinking plural and singular.
Sadly, I’ve never heard the old version used… but I’ve heard of it. Vous and tu was always something that confused me when I had French class though…

 

[Like]

I will object as soon as someone proves to me that the angel spoke Elizabethan English to Mary. Till then, such nitpicking will only meet rolled eyes from me.

As for the Our Father, same challenge.

And yes, there is a “modern” version of the Our Father, popular in some countries, translated by ICET:

Our Father in heaven
Holy be your name
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread
And forgive us our sins
As we forgive those who sin against us.
Do not lead us to the test
But deliver us from evil.

It’s just a translation, people.

Because what I bolded above, this translation sounds better in MHO.

How many times have heard said or asked" Why would God want to tempt us/me?" And…

yes, it is just a translation.

 

[mullenpm]

I was not expecting this thread to evolve into how French, Italian, Latin, etc. is spoken.

I was hoping for other opinions on the changing of some of the words of the Hail Mary on two very popular programs on EWTN.

Being sarcastic is uncalled for and an “holier than thou” attitude is always mean spirited.

I will just continue muting the opening prayers for The Divine Mercy Chaplet and, hopefully, perhaps some day we can go back to the traditional way of praying the Hail Mary and the Apostles’ Creed.

 

[atassina]

Thee and Thy are early modern English, the same form of English that Shakespeare used. For the people of that time, they actually used thee and thy in their common everyday speech. You live in the 21st century and speak modern English. Why do you want to use early modern English in your prayers when you speak modern English?

 

[mullenpm]

Because I love the TRADITIONAL way of praying and the way I learned my prayers as a child, that’s why.

 

[ConservativeOne]

I grew up praying, “Thee”, “Thy”, “Thou” and “Thine” - whether it’s the Hail Mary, the Our Father or whatever prayer is directed to God, Jesus and Our Lady. I prefer it, as it almost sounds more respectful than the way we would address one another in daily speech. But I sometimes slip.

My preference - “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus.” Doesn’t that sound beautiful? But occasionally, the less reverent or more familiar-sounding, “you” / “your”, comes out.

 

[Like]

I was not expecting this thread to evolve into how French, Italian, Latin, etc. is spoken.

I was hoping for other opinions on the changing of some of the words of the Hail Mary on two very popular programs on EWTN.

Being sarcastic is uncalled for and an “holier than thou” attitude is always mean spirited.

I will just continue muting the opening prayers for The Divine Mercy Chaplet and, hopefully, perhaps some day we can go back to the traditional way of praying the Hail Mary and the Apostles’ Creed.

I’m sorry if you took my post to be sarcastic, it sure wasn’t meant that way. And yes, I tend to agree with you on the Hail Mary prayer. I was raised with thee any thou & that’s the way I pray it, but it doesn’t really disturb me when I hear you or your.

But on the Apostle’s Creed, where " He descended into hell"… I have changed to what I & some priest say “He descended to the dead”. It’s kind of like saying the “Holy Ghost” Vs. “Holy Spirit”. In MHO it jut sounds better.

 

[atassina]

Therefore you would agree that using “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you. . . .” is not against the Gospel, against the holiness of God, against formal Church teaching or against the desire to live a holy life. Rather, using you is merely and accident of language change.

Accepting change is difficult. Change causes pain. Learning to accept change is the ultimate lesson of purgatory. In purgatory we are purged of all disordered attachments. Anything that prevents us from entering heaven is purged from us. However, being comfortable with one form of prayer not necessarily a disordered attachment. The words and style of a prayer should help us enter more deeply into our relationship with Jesus. However, if the words create a comfort zone that prevents us from seeing the deeper truths or truth of a prayer, we need to change.

 

[porthos11]

There is nothing inherently sacred or traditional about “thee”, “thy”, and “thou”, as contrasted to “you” and “yours”. One is an older form of English, the other is modern. It’s hardly the stuff to fuss about.

 

[thistle]

There is nothing inherently sacred or traditional about “thee”, “thy”, and “thou”, as contrasted to “you” and “yours”. One is an older form of English, the other is modern. It’s hardly the stuff to fuss about.

I agree. That was the vernacular at the time. The man on the street used thee, thou, thy. There is nothing special about these words.

 

[ConservativeOne]

Beyond the pronoun usage contraversy (you vs thee, etc.) - there’s also the consideration of prayers used for so many years - that have evolved…don’t know when or how…and while their intended meaning is still there, one has to wonder how / when it changed — and why?

Cases in point: The Our Father, Act of Contrition (yes, there’s two versions), and the St. Michael’s Prayer.

Also, as to the discussions of whether or not you use “us sinners” or a singular version (I stick to the plural - therefore, maintaining the original while praying for all) — there’s another question: In the “Hail, Holy Queen”…What do you say? “Before thee, we kneel”…If you’re not kneeling, do you say, “before thee we stand…or sit” sinful and sorrowful?..The debate could be endless. I believe we should keep to as original a format as we were taught, so as not to lose / water down our prayers - no matter what the language or century they’re recited in.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I was not expecting this thread to evolve into how French, Italian, Latin, etc. is spoken.

I was hoping for other opinions on the changing of some of the words of the Hail Mary on two very popular programs on EWTN.

Being sarcastic is uncalled for and an “holier than thou” attitude is always mean spirited.

I will just continue muting the opening prayers for The Divine Mercy Chaplet and, hopefully, perhaps some day we can go back to the traditional way of praying the Hail Mary and the Apostles’ Creed.

I’m sorry if my posts somehow appear distasteful to you or if you got the notion the thread was being 'jacked to a certain extent mullenpm - it was never the intention.

I was responding to this question by malphono…

I never have, nor never will, use the “you” form in that prayer. then again, I normally say it in either Syriac or Latin, so it doesn’t much affect me.

In French, the formal “you” was traditionally used (Je vous salue, Marie) until the post-conciliar “spirit” started its wild run. And then, voilà, it morphed into the familiar form (Je te salue). (I heard that once in public and my hair stood up!) As I understand it, though, the traditional form is still the most commonly used. Anyway, that’s what I’ve heard. Does anyone from Québec (or France) have a comment? I’d be interested to hear.

… and to this post by weepixie71 …

i feel uncomfortable about it also. but it stems from my fear of a little change here a little change there and next thing you know it is one more tradition lost to the modern way of doing things.

i know i shouldnt be this way but i am what i am.

Neither was mine an attempt at sarcasm but rather satire…sometimes a little smile can make certain things easier to bear. Personally, I use Thou and Thy when praying with and in public, simply because that was the way my mother taught it to me.

Again, I apologize if you found my replies offensive in any way.

God Bless.

 

[Cristiano]

Because I love the TRADITIONAL way of praying and the way I learned my prayers as a child, that’s why.

The TRADITIONAL way it is not the way that you learned as a child. The TRADITIONAL way changed with time due to language changes over 2000 years. I understand your desire to keep things they way you are used to, I am exactly the way you are. Usually I do NOT like changes when it comes to the Church, but that is my own little tradition (because is about me) and not the TRADITION.

 

[Middleman]

I’m used to thee and thou. I think it sounds more poetic. I also don’t like revisions of the 23d psalm. I like that in the old language. Sometimes I’ll hear it in another way and it just doesn’t sound as good.

 

[drforjc]

Changing it draws attention to the changes themselves and prevent me from paying attention to the content of the prayer.

I vote for thee and thou.

 

[Ghoti]

Technically, Latin is not entirely dead because new words are still being added to it (thanks to the Vatican). Just a bit of trivia.

It is extinct (as there are no native speakers), but not dead. At least, that’s what my English professor told be the distinction was.

I guess that’s where Latin differs from the passenger pigeon.

 

[mullenpm]

When I said I preferred the ‘traditional’ way that I was taught to pray the Hail Mary, I meant, as you are well aware, the traditional way the Hail Mary has been prayed for decades in the US. There is no need to drag us back 2,000 years to be called traditional.

I think that prayers are more respectful when using the ‘thee and thou.’

Also, I believe a poster said that he/she preferred to say Jesus descended to the ‘dead’ instead of descended to ‘hell’. Actually, I have no problem with that because the good holy Nuns taught us as children that Jesus did not descend into the hell of Satan. He descended into the place where all people who had died (good and bad) were waiting for redemption. I say ‘He descended into hell’ only because in my mind I know what that means so I don’t object if someone else wants to say ‘He descended to the dead’.

:grouphug:

 

[Ghoti]

Kind of like plastic surgeons who, while trying to give prayer a *modern facelift *are running the risk of relegating the prayer all the way into the witness protection program with a completely different identity …?

You mean like really modernizing it?

“Hi, Mary! You are wonderful! God* really* likes you!”

I’m of the opinion that prayers should be left alone, unless the antiquity of the passage starts to really and truly impair the understanding – i.e. when language goes from being merely archaic to being confusingly obsolete.

Personally, I don’t like all these innovations, I prefer the truly traditional prayer:

“hal wes ðu mid gyfe gefylled. drihten mid þe; þu eart gebletsud on wifum…”

 

[brigid12]

I really believe that using Elizabethan English, as opposed to modern English, shows more reverence and respect. Having a reverential religious language rather than using street English is most important to our worship, I truly think, and since there is such a strong resistance (I don’t know why ) to Latin, then Elizabethan English is lovely and traditional. The only caveat to this I would make is that when using the Elizabethan English makes understanding the actual theology of the words very difficult (to a high school graduate not a to a third grader as newspapers and even some in the hierarchy would prefer. ).

 

[Layman]

What is this urge to meddle with ancient prayers? I am so tired of armchair theologians changing things all the time. If you meddle with tradition, your past, you lose a piece of your culture and are poorer for it.

Prayers should be formal. The attitude ‘Jesus is my pal’ ignores the fact that he is a King. How do you normally speak to a king? Formally. **Using formal language encourages humility, a cardinal virtue.
**
I encourage my nieces and nephew to address me formally. If kids think of you as a pal, they’re less likely to take orders from you; you don’t take orders from a pal. And before anyone pipes up, they like it. I’m ‘Uncle Layman’ to them.

“Hi, Mary! You are wonderful! God really likes you!”

That’s about the size of it. Poetry is what’s lost in translation.

**I think the Catholic Church invented ‘dumbing down’ forty years before it caught on as a fad in Western culture. **This makes me sad.