Modernizing the Hail Mary

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Layman said:
1). You can go to a Novus Ordo mass with lay ministers of communion, communion in the hand, ladies in the sanctuary, vernacular language, the priest making up some of the words as he goes along, guitars and drums and modernised prayers (all allowed, currently)

or …
  1. You can go to a strict traditional Latin Mass, with Gregorian chant and an organ playing.
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Isn’t this a bit of a false dilemma? I hope you don’t mean to imply something about the OF Mass, but it doesn’t seem fair to imply that these are the only types of OF Masses available (well, other than EMHC’s and communion in the hand), especially when every OF Mass I’ve been to in my life save one has been perfectly reverent.
 
Like said:
I’m sorry if you took my post to be sarcastic, it sure wasn’t meant that way.😊
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Hi Rich, I think mullenpm was talking about my post, which was a tad sarcastic, I admit.

I just get frustrated. So much has changed, and it seems it never stops.
 
I_Believe said:
Hi Rich, I think mullen pm was talking about my post, which was a tad sarcastic, I admit.

I just get frustrated. So much has changed, and it seems it never stops.
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Amen to that! I still do not have a TLM available to attend. But I do have some good news,supposedly the bishop informed some priest that his goal is to have at least 1 EF a month in every parish in the diocese.

Please pray for our bishop!
Thank guy!
 
mullenpm said:
Does anyone else object to changing the words of the Hail Mary.

When I watch the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy on EWTN each day I mute the opening prayers and recite them to myself.

I just strongly dislike changing the words of the Hail Mary from Thee and Thy to you and your. Why is this necessary?

Also, the Apostles’ Creed bears little resemblance to the prayer I was raised with and said my entire life - I cannot say this version. Father Joseph Mary in praying the ‘Rosary for Life’ broadcast on Saturday afternoon on EWTN says it correctly, in mho.

I love Mother Angelica and the Nuns saying their Rosary. Mother Angelica even says “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit” at times.

Am I in the minority about this feeling or do other “older” Catholics feel the same.:confused:

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes:

Another intrusion is the “International Rosary” broadcast after the Divine Mercy Chaplet wherein the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:knight2: :amen:
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Hello-

Correct me if I am misinterpetting you but I have the impression that you were considering the Divine Mercy Chaplet as basically an alteration of the Rosary? I never really thought of them as being the same prayer. I say both of the prayers, and would consider the Divine Mercy Chaplet a beautiful prayer in it’s own right but not the same as the Roasary prayers. True, the Rosary beads are used to track the number of prayers, the same as the traditional Rosary but I never considered them another version of the same prayer. In the same light I use the Rosary beads when I say the “Jesus Prayer”. It also provides a means of tracking the prayers. I would have to say that when I say the Rosary itself, I say the traditional version. That is a matter of personal preference. I think for private prayers the important think is that whatever prayers are said, is that they be done in respect and reverence.

I do enjoy the preservation of traditions, but I think the Divine Mercy Chaplet is a worthy prayer and see no conflict with it and the traditional Rosary prayer. Why can’t we say both of them?
 
brigid12 said:
I love foreign languages. Would one of you foreign language literate people post the Hail Mary in French and in Spanish. Thanks, so much.🙂
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Ave Maria in Italian

Ave, O Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore e con te.
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto e il frutto del tuo seno, Gesu.
Santa Maria, madre di Dio,
prega per noi peccatori,
adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte,
Amen

Ave Maria in Spanish

Dios te salve, Maria, llena eres de gracia, el Senor es contigo;
bendita Tu eres entre todas las mujeres,
y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre, Jesus.
Santa Maria, Madre de Dios, ruega por nosotros, pecadores,
ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
Amen

I don’t know the French sorry.
 
Its all very well to prefer thee and thou, etc. However it seems that those who object to the use of the modern you and your are people who speak English as their first language. Where I now live we use English as our common languge and I would guess that it is the second language of most of my fellow parishioners, it therefore makes a whole lot of sense to use a form of English which is familiar, rather than imposing yet another level of unfamiliarity on the Hail Mary.

I have noticed that I use the form the nuns taught me way back in the 60s, while the folks around me use the form they are comfortable with. Does it really matter that much?
 
Leonius said:
Ave Maria in Italian

Ave, O Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore e con te.
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto e il frutto del tuo seno, Gesu.
Santa Maria, madre di Dio,
prega per noi peccatori,
adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte,
Amen

Ave Maria in Spanish

Dios te salve, Maria, llena eres de gracia, el Senor es contigo;
bendita Tu eres entre todas las mujeres,
y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre, Jesus.
Santa Maria, Madre de Dios, ruega por nosotros, pecadores,
ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
Amen

I don’t know the French sorry.
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You used the newer Italian version. The traditional one goes:

Ave, O Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore e con te.
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto e’ il frutto del ventre tuo, Gesu.
Santa Maria, madre di Dio,
prega per noi peccatori,
adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte,
Amen
 
Try this for the traditional French:

Je vous salue, Marie pleine de grâces
le Seigneur est avec vous.
Vous êtes bénie entre toutes les femmes et Jésus,
le fruit de vos entrailles, est béni.
Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu,
priez pour nous pauvres pécheurs,
maintenant et à l’heure de notre mort.
Ainsi soit-il.
 
Cristiano said:
You used the newer Italian version. The traditional one goes:

Ave, O Maria, piena di grazia, il Signore e con te.
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne e benedetto e’ il frutto del ventre tuo, Gesu.
Santa Maria, madre di Dio,
prega per noi peccatori,
adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte,
Amen
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Are you sure?

“e il frutto del tuo seno”
translates into:
“and the fruit of thy womb”
I always thought.

You sound like you know more than me so whats the difference?
 
Leonius said:
Are you sure?

“e il frutto del tuo seno”
translates into:
“and the fruit of thy womb”
I always thought.

You sound like you know more than me so whats the difference?
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Please go back and read post #9 😉
 
Yeah your right, unbelievable, I didn’t know that, I’d sure like to know what good of the Church and the faithful required them to make such a change.

It doesn’t even make sense any more, how can a baby be fruit of the breast?!?!:confused: utterly ridiculous.
 
Leonius said:
Yeah your right, unbelievable, I didn’t know that, I’d sure like to know what good of the Church and the faithful required them to make such a change.

It doesn’t even make sense any more, how can a baby be fruit of the breast?!?!:confused: utterly ridiculous.
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I would not call it utterly ridiculous. It has a lot to do with the cultural use of the word “seno” (breast) in Italian. It is not about the anatomical part but about the nursing and nurturing of the weak ones. It is common to hear some people wishing that the SSPX will come back 'in seno a Santa Madre Chiesa"

Just look at the first paragraph of the Italian Wikipedia article on the religious mendicant orders:

Gli ordini mendicanti, sorti tra l’XII ed il XIII secolo** in seno alla Chiesa cattolica,** sono quegli ordini religiosi ai quali la regola primitiva imponeva l’emissione di un voto di povertà implicante la rinuncia a ogni proprietà non solo per gli individui, ma anche per i conventi, e che traevano sostentamento unicamente dalla raccolta delle elemosine (questua).
 
Cristiano said:
I would not call it utterly ridiculous. It has a lot to do with the cultural use of the word “seno” (breast) in Italian. It is not about the anatomical part but about the nursing and nurturing of the weak ones. It is common to hear some people wishing that the SSPX will come back 'in seno a Santa Madre Chiesa"

Just look at the first paragraph of the Italian Wikipedia article on the religious mendicant orders:

Gli ordini mendicanti, sorti tra l’XII ed il XIII secolo** in seno alla Chiesa cattolica,** sono quegli ordini religiosi ai quali la regola primitiva imponeva l’emissione di un voto di povertà implicante la rinuncia a ogni proprietà non solo per gli individui, ma anche per i conventi, e che traevano sostentamento unicamente dalla raccolta delle elemosine (questua).
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But the problem is Christiano the use of the word womb, or ventris as it says in the latin vulgate is from scripture, from God Himself, seno is not. Perhaps it makes more sense in Italian but Christ was not the fruit of Mary’s nurture etc. the Holy Spirit speaking through Elizabeth clearly says womb and that is why the Ave Maria should also say womb.
 
I always thought “seno” although meaning breast was used because “ventre” doesn’t mean womb, it means more like stomach or abdomen. Seno is more feminine and motherly. 😃
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I always thought “seno” although meaning breast was used because “ventre” doesn’t mean womb, it means more like stomach or abdomen. Seno is more feminine and motherly. 😃
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Ventre can mean womb and comes from the latin ventris which also means womb.
 
Leonius said:
But the problem is Christiano the use of the word womb, or ventris as it says in the latin vulgate is from scripture, from the very mouth of God Himself, seno is not.
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I am just saying that the use of the word “seno” (breast) is not utterly ridiculous in Italian. However, it would probably be ridiculous if used in English.

While I prefer the direct translation of ventris because of the theological idea of Mary as the tabernacle. I can see the use of 'seno" because the “fiat” was not just about procreation (any woman can be a mother) but about the willful choice of being a real mom.

The angel did not say either ventris, or ventre, or womb. All of these are translations and translations must take account of the original context and the culture behind the language.
 
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