Modest swimwear as an example for my daughter

[LLMom]

There is a website dealing with such issues that cause such debate–like modesty, legitmate use of NFP, etc. thechurchfanatic.blogspot.com

 

[psr13]

Lets not forget that Vitamin D, gotten from the sun is an excellent cancer preventative. Of course burning is always bad, but very moderate sunbathing is actually a healthy thing.

But, I like Serap’s bathing suits. They are in our culture and society, quite modest yet still cute. They are not likely to call undue attention, they don’t scream “hey look at my body”. That is the definition of modesty. There is not really any reason to over think this issue, the definition of modest is clear.

You only need five to fifteen minutes in the sun to get enough vitamin D. Every expert will tell you that more than that is getting dangerous. Sunbathing is not a healthy thing.

 

[psr13]

I think what you mean is that your wife is pretty and feminine looking without being a “ho”

My husband feels the same way as you, but he likes me to dress feminine and pretty without the major cleavage, high heals and short short skirts. He also wouldn’t like my pants to be so tight that there is nothing left to the imagination

I think you are getting at the same things. I want to clarify for you before you get attacked

I wasn’t going to attack him. With his previous post it just seemed as though the only way to show you are proud of how your wife looks is to show her off. You can be proud of how your wife looks and not let her be eye candy for everyone else.

 

[Serap]

You only need five to fifteen minutes in the sun to get enough vitamin D. Every expert will tell you that more than that is getting dangerous. Sunbathing is not a healthy thing.

I tend to agree with PSR (for once ) that sunbathing in itself is not healthy. I personally don’t sunbath even when I’m on the beach. I’m under an umbrella or a tree.

If someone lays in the sun for a few days while on vacation with SPF 30, it’s not a big deal to their long-term health.

 

[rmbrulotte]

There is a website dealing with such issues that cause such debate–like modesty, legitmate use of NFP, etc. thechurchfanatic.blogspot.com

Thank you. I am so tired of people in my community and on CA who think they are “more Catholic than the Pope.” I have been ostracized and judged by several women, (who I used to really look up to as role models) when they went off the deep end, so to speak.

I also suggest checking out the blog “No Longer Quivering.” While I do not agree with a lot that is said on the blog, (most completely lost their faith and now shun religion altogether )the stories of the women give a glimpse into the lives of those who went over the top in their approach to religion.

 

[Serap]

Thank you. I am so tired of people in my community and on CA who think they are “more Catholic than the Pope.” I have been ostracized and judged by several women, (who I used to really look up to as role models) when they went off the deep end, so to speak.

:sad_yes:

I think that being religious can be dangerous if it is taken too far. It becomes an addiction like smoking or drinking. The person doesn’t realize that they have a problem. They feel that they are one of the few that will be saved and everyone else is doomed b/c they have lower moral fibre.

I’ve seen it too and it’s scary.

 

[simple_soul]

*Having been raised by a father whom you would probable consider to be over the top in his religious zeal. I can say that I am so tired of being judged by people as being scrupulous, too conservative and too modest why I try to reconcile every thing that I was taught with Truth and my conscience.
I was born, raised and bred with this “extreme” religious view and I know there are a lot of others out there like me. You have no idea how hard it is to trust some one telling you that it is OK and acceptable by God to wear a pair of pants when you were raised to believe that if you wore anything that even slightly resembled boys attire that you were destroying your femininity and going against who and what God created you to be.

And if you ever wore anything that was shorter than the knee or sleeveless or too plunging of a neck line or no back, then you were dressing for sexy reasons and that this was demeaning and degrading to what the whole purpose of what a woman’s body was designed for.

I still thank God for the priest that I first met when I started going to church again. I was so afraid that it was not acceptable for me to wear pants that I had to ask him if it was ok because I had started wearing them. I believe he had the best answer. “It all depends on the reason why you are wearing them.”

 

[Serap]

*Having been raised by a father whom you would probable consider to be over the top in his religious zeal. I can say that I am so tired of being judged by people as being scrupulous, too conservative and too modest why I try to reconcile every thing that I was taught with Truth and my conscience.
I was born, raised and bred with this “extreme” religious view and I know there are a lot of others out there like me. You have no idea how hard it is to trust some one telling you that it is OK and acceptable by God to wear a pair of pants when you were raised to believe that if you wore anything that even slightly resembled boys attire that you were destroying your femininity and going against who and what God created you to be.

And if you ever wore anything that was shorter than the knee or sleeveless or too plunging of a neck line or no back, then you were dressing for sexy reasons and that this was demeaning and degrading to what the whole purpose of what a woman’s body was designed for.

I still thank God for the priest that I first met when I started going to church again. I was so afraid that it was not acceptable for me to wear pants that I had to ask him if it was ok because I had started wearing them. I believe he had the best answer. “It all depends on the reason why you are wearing them.”

Thanks for sharing that Simple Soul. That was very kind of you to give us that insight into your character.

I understand better now why you question what constitutes as modesty and “showing off”. Because of your upbringing, you really have to look outside the scary box that your father created for you and that’s what you are doing - Good for you!!!

People sometimes use religion to make others feel evil and unworthy of Christ, but this is not true. Christ is in all of us and we are all worthy; Christ will never condemn us to Hell for simply wearing a bikini or something provocative if our intentions are not to cause men to lust. Some people are ignorant and we can’t judge ignorance.

God calls some to a life of single chastity - the religious life. I could never walk around in a habit and pray the Rosary 10 times a day and live a life of silence…it’s not my vocation. A nun could never walk on a beach with a bikini on. It’s not in her to do that. I cannot in good conscience wear something revealing on the beach either, but I will still wear my swimdress. A nun would never be able to wear my swimdresses though. It’s her vocation to do so.

It’s all about what God wants YOU to do. What is God calling YOU to do? Is it God’s will for you to dress a certain way or is it your inner fear…that inner voice …your father’s voice telling you you are improper and immoral?

Food for thought.

 

[rmbrulotte]

*Having been raised by a father whom you would probable consider to be over the top in his religious zeal. I can say that I am so tired of being judged by people as being scrupulous, too conservative and too modest why I try to reconcile every thing that I was taught with Truth and my conscience.
I was born, raised and bred with this “extreme” religious view and I know there are a lot of others out there like me. You have no idea how hard it is to trust some one telling you that it is OK and acceptable by God to wear a pair of pants when you were raised to believe that if you wore anything that even slightly resembled boys attire that you were destroying your femininity and going against who and what God created you to be.

And if you ever wore anything that was shorter than the knee or sleeveless or too plunging of a neck line or no back, then you were dressing for sexy reasons and that this was demeaning and degrading to what the whole purpose of what a woman’s body was designed for.

I still thank God for the priest that I first met when I started going to church again. I was so afraid that it was not acceptable for me to wear pants that I had to ask him if it was ok because I had started wearing them. I believe he had the best answer. “It all depends on the reason why you are wearing them.”

I think that the thing we are all struggling with here is being judged. I feel judged by people who think I am sinful because I wear makeup and style my hair. You feel judged by more “mainstream” people because you choose modest clothing. What I do know for sure is that, in this matter, there really is no room to judge. We can definitely judge murder since the Church has said that it is unequivocally wrong. (Yes, I realize that there is some room there for culpability). But there is no rule anywhere that says certain clothes must or must not be worn. Like your priest said, modesty is a matter of the heart. We can’t judge the reason why someone is or isn’t wearing something since we don’t know their hearts. We need to order our lives based on the Truth and all of the things we need to lead lives proper to our state in life will be given to us by our Father.

 

[simple_soul]

Thanks for sharing that Simple Soul. That was very kind of you to give us that insight into your character.

I understand better now why you question what constitutes as modesty and “showing off”. Because of your upbringing, you really have to look outside the scary box that your father created for you and that’s what you are doing - Good for you!!!

People sometimes use religion to make others feel evil and unworthy of Christ, but this is not true. Christ is in all of us and we are all worthy; Christ will never condemn us to Hell for simply wearing a bikini or something provocative if our intentions are not to cause men to lust. Some people are ignorant and we can’t judge ignorance.

You see this is what causes such huge confusion because this is what my father believed also. And it is not just my father’s “scary box” … it is a lot of people that I knew growing up.

God calls some to a life of single chastity - the religious life. I could never walk around in a habit and pray the Rosary 10 times a day and live a life of silence…it’s not my vocation. A nun could never walk on a beach with a bikini on. It’s not in her to do that. I cannot in good conscience wear something revealing on the beach either, but I will still wear my swim dress. A nun would never be able to wear my swim dresses though. It’s her vocation to do so.

I understand this and I believe my father would agree with you on this too only he would add that even though my vocation does not call for me to wear a habbit I still need to wear something that was not revealing in a way that would display my body to be suggestive in nature as to reduce my femininity to a sexually sudgestive image with no respect to the dignity of my vocation of bringing children into the world through marriage.

**It’s all about what God wants YOU to do. What is God calling YOU to do? ** Is it God’s will for you to dress a certain way or is it your inner fear…that inner voice …your father’s voice telling you you are improper and immoral?

*With or without my father’s voice I still can not find or understand church teaching that proves him or others like him wrong in how he raised me so I guess my search for understanding and Truth continues…
*

 

[Serap]

You see this is what causes such huge confusion because this is what my father believed also. And it is not just my father’s “scary box” … it is a lot of people that I knew growing up.

I understand this and I believe my father would agree with you on this too only he would add that even though my vocation does not call for me to wear a habbit I still need to wear something that was not revealing in a way that would display my body to be suggestive in nature as to reduce my femininity to a sexually sudgestive image with no respect to the dignity of my vocation of bringing children into the world through marriage.

*With or without my father’s voice I still can not find or understand church teaching that proves him or others like him wrong in how he raised me so I guess my search for understanding and Truth continues…
*

aww…God bless you Simple Soul. Thanks for sharing that and being so sincere. That was beautiful.

 

[rmbrulotte]

*With or without my father’s voice I still can not find or understand church teaching that proves him or others like him wrong in how he raised me so I guess my search for understanding and Truth continues…
**

There isn’t going to be a Church teaching on what you should or should not wear. The Church, in her wisdom recognizes that there are differences in culture, climate, fashion, etc. From the Catechism 2524: The FORMS (my emphasis added) taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening them in respect for the human person.

It sounds like your father unintentionally taught you fear in addition to awakening you in respect for the human person. Also, the part about being a subject means that we always have to remember that we are of God and we need to dress to reflect that. God is masculine and feminine in his nature. As a woman, I want to reflect that feminine beauty in my dress and behavior. No, I can’t over-emphasize the sexual nature of myself in my dress because not only is that only part of who I am, chastity requires me to keep that hidden.

From the Catechsm 2519: The pure in heart are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him. Purity of the heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbors - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

The is so amazing to me; that we are to see the body as a manifestation of divine beauty. God is infinite. That must mean that there are infinite ways to express divine beauty. There is no pat answer to your questions. If you are truly seeking to glorify God and reflect His infinite beauty, you will never go wrong.

 

[simple_soul]

There isn’t going to be a Church teaching on what you should or should not wear. The Church, in her wisdom recognizes that there are differences in culture, climate, fashion, etc. From the Catechism 2524: The FORMS (my emphasis added) taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening them in respect for the human person.

It sounds like your father unintentionally taught you fear in addition to awakening you in respect for the human person.

I do not know about how unintentionally the fear was taught. But I do believe that he believed he was doing the “right thing.” I also do not believe he realized or understood how detrimental it could be to one’s own confidence and trust in one’s own judgement.

Also, the part about being a subject means that we always have to remember that we are of God and we need to dress to reflect that. God is masculine and feminine in his nature. As a woman, I want to reflect that feminine beauty in my dress and behavior. No, I can’t over-emphasize the sexual nature of myself in my dress because not only is that only part of who I am, chastity requires me to keep that hidden.

I do not even know how or were I went wrong in what I said earlier to ever give the impression that I though differently with what you say here. The only question I have is should we ever emphasize our sexual nature exspecialy if chastity requires us to keep it hidden?

From the Catechsm 2519: The pure in heart are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him. Purity of the heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbors - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

This would explain a lot.

The is so amazing to me; that we are to see the body as a manifestation of divine beauty. God is infinite. That must mean that there are infinite ways to express divine beauty.If you are truly seeking to glorify God and reflect His infinite beauty, you will never go wrong.

*This is amazing to me too and in all honesty this is what I try to live my life for. But others, not including my father, always cautioned that one could be disillusioned and therefor sinning and not even know it and there for loose their soul.
From what you are saying, in the second part I bolded, can one in a bikini or even naked as long as they are truly seeking to glorify God and reflect His infinite beauty go wrong?
*

 

[simple_soul]

aww…God bless you Simple Soul. Thanks for sharing that and being so sincere. That was beautiful.

*Umm I am not sure why you are thanking me. But thank you for letting me use your thread to try and hash this out. I have spent years hearing this debate about what is too modest and what is not modest enough that I was just about ready to start walking around naked in “extreme conservative circles” and covered in a head to toe swim suite in “not so extreme conservative” circles.

On a side note I do trust your judgment. It is just mine that I am not so sure about. That is why I ask all my questions I do.

Thank you for your blessing and God bless you too
If you see me on the beach please say hi.

 

[Serap]

*Umm I am not sure why you are thanking me. But thank you for letting me use your thread to try and hash this out. I have spent years hearing this debate about what is too modest and what is not modest enough that I was just about ready to start walking around naked in “extreme conservative circles” and covered in a head to toe swim suite in “not so extreme conservative” circles.

On a side note I do trust your judgment. It is just mine that I am not so sure about. That is why I ask all my questions I do.

Thank you for your blessing and God bless you too
If you see me on the beach please say hi.

I’ll do better than say hi…I’ll give you a biiiiigggg hug

I think that if a person truly believes that they are not dressed provocative and are not trying to incite lust in men, then they are not sinning. Ignorance does not equal sin and they will not be doomed to a life of perdition. A priest also once told me that too.

 

[simple_soul]

I’ll do better than say hi…I’ll give you a biiiiigggg hug

And I will hug you back!

I think that if a person truly believes that they are not dressed provocative and are not trying to incite lust in men, then they are not sinning.

I completely agree with this.

Ignorance does not equal sin and they will not be doomed to a life of perdition. A priest also once told me that too.

I believe the correct term is “invincible ignorance does not equal sin.”
But then again I could be wrong…
Anyway I do not believe it even really applies to the subject if there is nothing wrong with how you or I perceive what is modest…
Or did I miss something?

 

[rmbrulotte]

I do not know about how unintentionally the fear was taught. But I do believe that he believed he was doing the “right thing.” I also do not believe he realized or understood how detrimental it could be to one’s own confidence and trust in one’s own judgement.

Ok, so maybe I was trying to be nice! I also didn’t want to assume anything.

I do not even know how or were I went wrong in what I said earlier to ever give the impression that I though differently with what you say here. The only question I have is should we ever emphasize our sexual nature exspecialy if chastity requires us to keep it hidden?

You didn’t, I was just illustrating my thoughts.

When I am alone with my husband, I emphasize my sexual nature. I also might wear something that is tighter/lower cut/shows more leg around him than I would in public. I consider that part of our sexual relationship and do keep it hidden from the rest of the world. I personally don’t mind if my children notice that I will at timesxwear some things around “daddy” and won’t in public. I am sure that as they get older, that will change.

*This is amazing to me too and in all honesty this is what I try to live my life for. But others, not including my father, always cautioned that one could be disillusioned and therefor sinning and not even know it and there for loose their soul.
From what you are saying, in the second part I bolded, can one in a bikini or even naked as long as they are truly seeking to glorify God and reflect His infinite beauty go wrong?
*

It sounds to me that your father, and others like him, were adding in things to the teaching on modesty and serving it up as truth. The Catechism clearly states that modesty is an outgrowth of the pure in heart. The lack of modesty in someone properly formed in the faith would more likely indicate spiritual trouble, not the cause. Yes, immodestly could cause further damage, but there would have to be something lacking from the get-go in order for one to dress immodestly. (Unless there was ignorance of the cultural/religious norms of chastity and dress)

In my opinion most bikinis are actually designed to illicit lust, so while I suppose there could be a way one could wear a bikini without being immodest, I can’t think of one, unless one was alone with one’s husband. (I think being naked may be even more modest in some cases than the bikini because the bikini inspires an unhealthy curiosity whereas if one were to see a naked body they would most likely immediately look away in embarrassment. That is just my opinion though.) The Catechism says that there is a connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith (2518). I think that as baptized persons we would not be aiding in the battle against concupiscence if we were to walk around naked. I certainly know what would happen if I were to be naked more often in the presence of my husband. But, for example, a child who doesn’t know any better and just likes the feeling of being naked is definitely not sinning or hurting their soul if they run out into the yard naked before mom or dad can catch them!

 

[PatriceA]

It sounds to me that your father, and others like him, were adding in things to the teaching on modesty and serving it up as truth. The Catechism clearly states that modesty is an outgrowth of the pure in heart. The lack of modesty in someone properly formed in the faith would more likely indicate spiritual trouble, not the cause. Yes, immodestly could cause further damage, but there would have to be something lacking from the get-go in order for one to dress immodestly. (Unless there was ignorance of the cultural/religious norms of chastity and dress)

In my opinion most bikinis are actually designed to illicit lust, so while I suppose there could be a way one could wear a bikini without being immodest, I can’t think of one, unless one was alone with one’s husband. (I think being naked may be even more modest in some cases than the bikini because the bikini inspires an unhealthy curiosity whereas if one were to see a naked body they would most likely immediately look away in embarrassment. That is just my opinion though.) The Catechism says that there is a connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith (2518). I think that as baptized persons we would not be aiding in the battle against concupiscence if we were to walk around naked. I certainly know what would happen if I were to be naked more often in the presence of my husband. But, for example, a child who doesn’t know any better and just likes the feeling of being naked is definitely not sinning or hurting their soul if they run out into the yard naked before mom or dad can catch them!

OR you have the parents that think its really cute to let their children run around naked or dress up their young daughters in tiny bikinis and then they wonder why they have such a hard time getting their teenager to dress with any kind of modesty guidelines.

 

[simple_soul]

It sounds to me that your father, and others like him, were adding in things to the teaching on modesty and serving it up as truth. The Catechism clearly states that modesty is an outgrowth of the pure in heart. The lack of modesty in someone properly formed in the faith would more likely indicate spiritual trouble, not the cause. Yes, immodestly could cause further damage, but there would have to be something lacking from the get-go in order for one to dress immodestly. (Unless there was ignorance of the cultural/religious norms of chastity and dress)

One thing I do not understand is why we try to figure out some one else lack or extreme modesty. I thought this whole discussion was about how we should not be doing this and just trusting that they have a pure heart.

In my opinion most bikinis are actually designed to illicit lust, so while I suppose there could be a way one could wear a bikini without being immodest, I can’t think of one.

*But you see I could say, in my opinion the OP pictures are actually designed to illicit lust too just in a more subtle way. (Serap, I know this is not why you wear it. I still trust your judgement.)
And actually I believe I do know quite a few girl’s who do were bikini’s and I know them well enough to say with confidence that I believe they do have a pure heart.
I could not tell you about anyone who is naked because I have not met some one naked yet. But I wonder…

Anyway thank you for helping me to bounce this around to understand it better.

Peace and God bless*

 

[Serap]

OR you have the parents that think its really cute to let their children run around naked or dress up their young daughters in tiny bikinis and then they wonder why they have such a hard time getting their teenager to dress with any kind of modesty guidelines.

ooooo I hate this! My girlfriend has a iddy biddy bikini for her 4 year old