Modest Swimwear

[severus68]

If they have a well-formed conscience, and study these topics… probably they aren’t going to end in a nude protests or “happening”.

Again, I don’t know why so many people in this thread are so interested on excusing lax positions regarding modesty.

So much time and energy spent on telling others what they should not wear.

 

[CesarAugustus]

So much time and energy spent on telling others what they should not wear.

Because is important. This is about sin, about regaining what has been destroyed in the recent decades.

• by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;

• by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;313

• by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;314

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

“The good of our soul is more important than that of our body; and we have to prefer the spiritual welfare of our neighbor to our bodily comforts. If a certain kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin, and endangers the salvation of your soul and others, it is your duty to give it up. O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making of yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians.”

Pius XII to Catholic Young Women’s Groups of Italy

Complying with Catholic standards is more important than catering to secularistic sensitivities, etc.

 

[The_Bucket]

Again, I don’t know why so many people in this thread are so interested on excusing lax positions regarding modesty.

We’re not. We’re stating what the Church’s actual teaching is on it and insisting that individuals not project their own feelings on the matter onto others. There is a difference, for instance, between modesty and decorum. Decorum dictates that it is not really appropriate to run around nude. But that’s not because nudity is inherently immodest.

I tell my kids to not leave the door open when they take showers. They are preschool age. They are not being immodest, but it’s not proper decorum.

As I said before, I assure you I’m not advocating for scantily clad women or dudes in tight-fitting speedos to be roaming around in order to show themselves off. I’m saying that modesty of the heart is the most critical element and it’s not something we can know about anyone other than ourselves.

 

[CesarAugustus]

We’re not.

You say you’re not, but there are other posters that have been doing that.

 

[The_Bucket]

Complying with Catholic standards is more important than catering to secularistic sensitivities, etc.

Ah but we agree. And further I agree with the Holy Father when he says…

If a certain kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin, and endangers the salvation of your soul and others, it is your duty to give it up.

My only point of clarification is it’s not up to you or anyone else to decide what kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin for anyone else! There is no hard and fast rule here. There just isn’t. Am I causing my neighbor temptation by moving the lawn without a shirt? I have no idea. But I don’t think so. Certainly not now. If I lost 15 pounds and got into wicked good shape, would I cause that temptation? Again, I don’t think so. Might be more likely than now. But still… no I don’t think so. And I have no intention to do so either.

My wife is in absurdly good shape. Does she cause others temptation by running in tighter fitting clothes? I don’t know. Maybe. Actually she might. Is she trying to do that or is she wearing running clothes because… well… it’s easier to run in them? I’m going with that.

If you ask me, yoga pants are way more tempting than shorts or spaghetti-straps. Should I just then declare all yoga pants to be immodest because they show off backsides? That’s ridiculous. I’m sure there are some women who walk around in those pants to get attention. That is immodest. There are plenty others who are doing so because they are comfortable or because, well, they are exercising. That’s NOT immodest.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Ah but we agree. And further I agree with the Holy Father when he says…

Good.

My only point of clarification is it’s not up to you or anyone else to decide what kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin for anyone else! There is no hard and fast rule here. There just isn’t. Am I causing my neighbor temptation by moving the lawn without a shirt? I have no idea. But I don’t think so. Certainly not now. If I lost 15 pounds and got into wicked good shape, would I cause that temptation? Again, I don’t think so. Might be more likely than now. But still… no I don’t think so. And I have no intention to do so either.

My wife is in absurdly good shape. Does she cause others temptation by running in tighter fitting clothes? I don’t know. Maybe. Actually she might. Is she trying to do that or is she wearing running clothes because… well… it’s easier to run in them? I’m going with that.

If you ask me, yoga pants are way more tempting than shorts or spaghetti-straps. Should I just then declare all yoga pants to be immodest because they show off backsides? That’s ridiculous. I’m sure there are some women who walk around in those pants to get attention. That is immodest. There are plenty others who are doing so because they are comfortable or because, well, they are exercising. That’s NOT immodest.

An about the part in bold… yes, is possible to do instructions about clothing, it has been done before, and some Priests still do that. For example, I know about a Priest that (well studied and doctrinally orthodox) considers these types of pants as immodest.

Sadly, since some decades ago, some people in the clergy don’t seem to be interested in producing instructions regarding clothing, and specific pieces.

 

[The_Bucket]

Well, a Priest I know (well studied and doctrinally orthodox) considers these types of pants as immodest.

Sadly, since some decades ago, some clergy don’t seem to be interested in producing instructions regarding clothing, and specific pieces.

And about the part in bold… yes, is possible to do instructions about clothing, it has been done before, and some Priests still do that.

It’s fine to issue guidelines. Or even “here’s what I think about this.” But again, that’s a suggestion. Might even be good suggestions! But it is not binding instruction or doctrine.

 

[CesarAugustus]

It’s fine to issue guidelines. Or even “here’s what I think about this.” But again, that’s a suggestion. Might even be good suggestions! But it is not binding instruction or doctrine.

Mere suggestions… people like to discard these.

The not binding, not doctrine, could be used (and is used frequently) as a easy way out of following mdoesty standards.

 

[Baby_Bach]

So it is your opinion then that women should not wear shorts in public, or even at home? I don’t even know where to start on that.

Our Lady’s message is a good one. It’s when men (and women!) try to take certain cultural norms and apply them everywhere and for all time that we run into trouble. Even the Holy Father can stumble on that account; and fortunate for us all that commentary on standards of dress are not doctrine and are not infallible statements.

What I am saying is that Catholic people should follow chastity and modesty, this is not an opinion, this is what the Church has always said. I’m not saying you are wrong when you say there is no specific Church teaching on exactly what we should wear, but it makes me wonder, if there isn’t does that mean we disregard modesty altogether? And that we just decide ourselves what we only ourselves consider modest, and just wear whatever? Honestly, when I started this thread about swim suits, I did not think it was going to turn into an argument, and I am not much of a debater at all, actually I do not like conflict like this… and I feel like I’m being attacked here because I simply follow what I have always considered what being a Catholic is, by wearing proper clothing. I wish this thread could just be closed.

 

[CesarAugustus]

What I am saying is that Catholic people should follow chastity and modesty, this is not an opinion, this is what the Church has always said. I’m not saying you are wrong when you say there is no specific Church teaching on exactly what we should wear, but it makes me wonder, if there isn’t does that mean we disregard modesty altogether? And that we just decide ourselves what we only ourselves consider modest, and just wear whatever? Honestly, when I started this thread about swim suits, I did not think it was going to turn into an argument, and I am not much of a debater at all, actually I do not like conflict like this… and I feel like I’m being attacked here because I simply follow what I have always considered what being a Catholic is, by wearing proper clothing. I wish this thread could just be closed.

Don’t be discouraged by opinions in this thread.

I have seen lots of modesty threads in this forum. Excuses, excuses, the same arguments, etc.

 

[The_Bucket]

What I am saying is that Catholic people should follow chastity and modesty, this is not an opinion, this is what the Church has always said. I’m not saying you are wrong when you say there is no specific Church teaching on exactly what we should wear, but it makes me wonder, **if there isn’t does that mean we disregard modesty altogether? **

Of course not. You follow your well-formed conscience. The Church does not have a “do this, don’t do this” for every aspect of our lives. That’s really my only point here.

And that we just decide ourselves what we only ourselves consider modest, and just wear whatever?

Yes. But you don’t make that decision lightly, nor do you make it on your own. As I said earlier, you follow your conscience. And I don’t mean that in a “follow your arrow wherever it points” or “listen to your heart” as secularists say. I mean literally follow a well-formed conscience.

Honestly, when I started this thread about swim suits, I did not think it was going to turn into an argument, and I am not much of a debater at all, actually I do not like conflict like this… and I feel like I’m being attacked here because I simply follow what I have always considered what being a Catholic is, by wearing proper clothing. I wish this thread could just be closed.

I’m very sorry for the collateral damage and I certainly have no intention of attacking you or really anyone else.

 

[The_Bucket]

I have seen lots of modesty threads in this forum. Excuses, excuses, the same arguments, etc.

Ugh. “Excuses.” Taking the “easy way out.” You’ve gotta stop with that man. You’re presuming. Presumption of your brothers and sisters is an ugly thing. Are there people who self-deceive? Sure. That’s why I said those suggestions might be a good idea. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who do not deceive themselves and so I am simply noting that there are no hard and fast rules for the West or for any other culture for that matter.

It’s like NFP, which is also hotly debated here for God knows what reason. You’d think we’d want to lay off the 5-10% of our brothers and sisters who actually are in line with the Church but such is the Internet. Anyway, the Church says we should use it for serious reasons. She also does not at all tell us what those serious reasons are or even give a guideline for what they might be. She leaves it up to the faithful to determine that through sober analysis, prayer and conversation between spouses.

Those who lie to themselves are hurting themselves to be sure. But you are hurting yourself by assuming others are being self-deceptive. Express the importance of modesty. Proclaim it to the world. Please do! We need more people who will! But do not sit in the arbiter’s chair and determine what is or is not modest. That chair reserved for Someone Else.

 

[Baby_Bach]

And don’t get me wrong the bucket I do agree with the what you mean, if the CC did come out with something that is super strict dress/clothing that would be very hard to follow. But does it seem like there is a particular kind of dress Catholic people wear when being modest, and that usually has to do with some form of coverage… kinda like a Catholic norm, I suppose.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Ugh. “Excuses.” Taking the “easy way out.” You’ve gotta stop with that man. You’re presuming. Presumption of your brothers and sisters is an ugly thing. Are there people who self-deceive? Sure. That’s why I said those suggestions might be a good idea. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who do not deceive themselves and so I am simply noting that there are no hard and fast rules for the West or for any other culture for that matter.

I have years reading threads here, and not only about modesty. Even some people are very obvious with their excuses. Also, I have noted similar things in person. How can be presumption if they say it?

Aren’t you presuming when saying that about me?

 

[The_Bucket]

And don’t get me wrong the bucket I do agree with the what you mean, if the CC did come out with something that is super strict dress/clothing that would be very hard to follow. But does it seem like there is a particular kind of dress Catholic people wear when being modest, and that usually has to do with some form of coverage… kinda like a Catholic norm, I suppose.

A Catholic norm in non-tropical,non-desert environments, yeah. But folks don’t walk around in Middle Eastern style robes in Arizona, for instance. And keep in mind that shorts were seen as immodest for men for quite some time. If I couldn’t wear shorts in south Florida, I’m pretty sure I would have died.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Those who lie to themselves are hurting themselves to be sure. But you are hurting yourself by assuming others are being self-deceptive. Express the importance of modesty. Proclaim it to the world. Please do! We need more people who will! But do not sit in the arbiter’s chair and determine what is or is not modest. That chair reserved for Someone Else.

So when in the past, Cardinals and Priests determined what was modest and what not, they were wrong?

And when today, a Priest do the same, is he wrong?

 

[The_Bucket]

So when in the past, Cardinals and Priests determined what was modest and what not, they were wrong?

And when today, a Priest do the same, is he wrong?

Are you talking about what is proper decorum in church? Such as dress codes? No. Dress codes are totally fine with me.

If you mean cardinals and priests offering more than suggestions, then yes. They are not the arbiter of what is and is not modest. They can offer counsel. Suggestions. Strong recommendations. They do not sit in the seat of God though. If it’s not in the Catechism, it’s not doctrine.

The laity should seriously consider what the clergy tells them, but they are not judges. They do not have the final decision. If they were placing themselves in the position to determine who is and who is not sinning when it comes to this sort of thing, then they themselves were sinning for making themselves the Judge.

It’s not the same as abortion or contraception or stealing or missing Sunday Mass intentionally. That’s all spelled out. It’s clear. It’s not up to well-formed consciences. It’s non-negotiable. Deciding whether that pair of shorts is immodest or not is not up to a priest. It can be up to a pastor as to whether it fits the dress code for his parish, but in that case he is not determining whether wearing certain clothing is a sin, simply if it fits decorum.

 

[severus68]

Don’t be discouraged by opinions in this thread.

I have seen lots of modesty threads in this forum. Excuses, excuses, the same arguments, etc.

You make disparaging remarks about people on CAF and about clergy too. I am done.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Are you talking about what is proper decorum in church? Such as dress codes? No. Dress codes are totally fine with me.

If you mean cardinals and priests offering more than suggestions, then yes. They are not the arbiter of what is and is not modest. They can offer counsel. Suggestions. Strong recommendations. They do not sit in the seat of God though. If it’s not in the Catechism, it’s not doctrine.

The laity should seriously consider what the clergy tells them, but they are not judges. They do not have the final decision. If they were placing themselves in the position to determine who is and who is not sinning when it comes to this sort of thing, then they themselves were sinning for making themselves the Judge.

It’s not the same as abortion or contraception or stealing or missing Sunday Mass intentionally. That’s all spelled out. It’s clear. It’s not up to well-formed consciences. It’s non-negotiable. Deciding whether that pair of shorts is immodest or not is not up to a priest. It can be up to a pastor as to whether it fits the dress code for his parish, but in that case he is not determining whether wearing certain clothing is a sin, simply if it fits decorum.

If some people have a hard time with Catechism writings… what is to be expected of non-binding recommendations? and I’m not presuming, these are just things I see constantly. Is very frustrating.

Well, I guess is time to devise some guidelines that could appeal that people that don’t care too much about what certain Cardinal said in 1930. But how? maybe considering what people find sexually exciting or is an ocassion of sin for them?

 

[CesarAugustus]

You make disparaging remarks about people on CAF and about clergy too. I am done.

I’m only reffering about things that could be seen in these threads during years, and about what some members of the Clergy are or aren’t preaching about. Is not very difficult to notice that.