Modesty advice

[Walking_Home]

men who are wanting to see women as objects will not stop no matter what they are wearing. we have a point there.

but those who don’t but unfortunately have developed the bad habit of having lustful toughts, are certainly not having it easier by people dressing immodestly.

Please read this and answer honestly:
a friend of yours told you that his laptop was stolen,you ask how did it happen. He tells you that he leave it on bench on the street while he went to a nearby store to use the restroom and when he came back it was gone.

what would you say to him?

---

We are speaking about a person/ a human being – made in the image and likeness of God – not a laptop. When we place “responsibility” on a person for the disordered mind of another – we are actually feeding the disordered lustful mind.

 

[DMC12]

---

We are speaking about a person/ a human being – made in the image and likeness of God – not a laptop. When we place “responsibility” on a person for the disordered mind of another – we are actually feeding the disordered lustful mind.

sorry if this sounds rude, but just answer the question.

 

[Bookcat]

Person choosing what to wear is responsible for their choice.

Person looking at and thinking wrongly of the person is responsible for their choice.

The first is to dress modestly.

The second is to look and think modestly and chastely.

 

[Kliska]

In agreement.

 

[severus68]

men who are wanting to see women as objects will not stop no matter what they are wearing. we have a point there.

but those who don’t but unfortunately have developed the bad habit of having lustful toughts, are certainly not having it easier by people dressing immodestly.

Please read this and answer honestly:
a friend of yours told you that his laptop was stolen,you ask how did it happen. He tells you that he leave it on bench on the street while he went to a nearby store to use the restroom and when he came back it was gone.

what would you say to him?

And the point? The sinner is the thief not the victim. This is dangerously close to saying a rape victim asks for it if she was not dressed “modestly”.

 

[ClearWater]

Protecting women from loose men via “modesty” – that’s putting on a a false cover on the situation – for it hides the real sickness that festers and grows --a disordered desired lustful mind. Grace is the solution to a disordered mind.

What did the saints have to say about modesty?

catholicmodesty.com/Chrysostom.html

catholicmodesty.com/StFrancisdeSales.html

saintsworks.net/Modesty%20and%20Purity%20-%20Quotations%20Pertaining%20to%20Modesty%20and%20Purity%20-%20II.html

St. Francis de Sales would encourage you not to keep company with immodest people.

As to fraternal correction, we don’t like to do it in our time. I know St. John the Baptist used fraternal correction, and it wasn’t even about friendship. It got him beheaded, but he was just the kind of person that wouldn’t give in to compromise. That’s just him, though.

 

[ClearWater]

There is such a thing as fraternal correction.

Personally, I think priests, and those teaching catechism, hold some of the greatest responsibility for the teaching of modesty. Secondly, I believe it falls to people like parents when they raise their children. Thirdly, I think we all share some degree of responsibility for getting the word out.

 

[thewanderer]

Please refer to my previous post which references the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on fraternal correction. Yes, fraternal correction can be a moral obligation, but only under certain very specific situations which the encyclopedia itself says rarely occur for someone not in a position of authority. When people inappropriately try to “correct” others it can cause great harm and drive those people further away from Christ and His Church.

Also, just a note, but we have just as much (in fact I would argue more) of a responsibility to “get the word out” about the importance of personal purity and taking full responsibility for ones sins as we do about dressing modestly. As you are clearly eager to spread the word about modesty I hope you are at least as vigilant about informing others of the importance of personal purity? (If everyone developed the virtue of purity all sins against chastity would cease to exist. This is not true about modesty, even if you managed to get every single person to dress modestly, sins against chastity would still exist. This shows that the more fundamental and more important problem is that of personal lust vs personal purity. Yes, modesty is also important, but not nearly as important as each individual taking responsibility for their own sins and learning to develop the virtue of purity.)

 

[crenfro]

Should I talk with my female friends about modesty? I am being controlling or judgmental by doing that? The only reason I am doing it is because I want to protect them from loose men.

us

Hello and God bless you!

I wish there were more out there like you.

My two cents…

If the immodesty of your female friends is tempting others to sin, correct your friends, gently and lovingly, about the danger to themselves and the possible occasion of sin they subject men to by their immodest attire.

Takes courage and tact. I like Colleen Hammond’s book Dressing with Dignity. You could hand out copies of this to your female friends, like gifts maybe… They’ll get the hint… and perhaps you might have inadvertently helped save a soul of one of your friends too… or kept them from more serious sin…

…just my opinion though, please take it or leave it…

 

[DMC12]

I think that would be quite like giving a mouthwash to someone who has bad breath. you know, they could even feel more offended by that.

the book idea is not bad nonetheless, but maybe be more discrete, buy the book and leave it around where they could see it, and stuff like that to move their curiosity. if you dont think you could do that, i think you should see for a subtle way of saying it, maybe bring it as somehing casual like someone said, start a normal conversation and just bring it at some point, so they can know what they are doing.

 

[crenfro]

I think that would be quite like giving a mouthwash to someone who has bad breath. you know, they could even feel more offended by that.

the book idea is not bad nonetheless, but maybe be more discrete, buy the book and leave it around where they could see it, and stuff like that …

Hello.

Halitosis is not an occasion of sin.

In my opinion, please take it or leave it, leaving a book around is too subtle…especially when a person’s behavior may be causing sins of lust. If a person is dressing immodestly I suspect they’re more used to indiscretion than discretion and wouldn’t be likely to notice a book left around.

I care about others feelings and sensibilities, but not at the expense of their or someone’s or my soul.

I’m also very tired of having to avert my eyes in church, where even there I’m visually subject to immodesty.

 

[ClearWater]

Hello.

Halitosis is not an occasion of sin.

I’m also very tired of having to avert my eyes in church, where even there I’m visually subject to immodesty./QUOTE]

Ah! God bless you for at least averting your eyes! I think it was Job who also had sort of like a pact with his eyes, that he would refuse to look upon…that which might tempt him. The saints were the same.

Wish I was able to find the account online where someone, believe it was a saint, had a vision of hell where a woman was there, tormented. She was there for dressing in what was the style of the day!

So, a lot of people think “…because everyone else is doing it” is going to be an acceptable answer to God in the afterlife, but I doubt it.

Well, with the Israelites, they were routinely subjected to pagan culture all the time, but when they fell, …“Because everyone else was doing that…” was not a valid excuse.

On a non-religious note, I read somewhere that as much of 80% of communication comes in NON-verbal forms…the way we dress, gestures we use, etc. So, we can be talking about purity up and down, but if we’re dressing provocatively and such, it doesn’t mean much, does it?

I think it’s currently more popular, politically-correct, and all the rest to talk about masturbation, sex-change operations, same-sex marriages, than discuss modesty.
It’s highly controversial!

I wonder what the saints would have done! Would they have stayed quiet or spoken out?

 

[fpt]

Hello and God bless you!

I wish there were more out there like you.

My two cents…

If the immodesty of your female friends is tempting others to sin, correct your friends, gently and lovingly, about the danger to themselves and the possible occasion of sin they subject men to by their immodest attire.

Takes courage and tact. I like Colleen Hammond’s book Dressing with Dignity. You could hand out copies of this to your female friends, like gifts maybe… They’ll get the hint… and perhaps you might have inadvertently helped save a soul of one of your friends too… or kept them from more serious sin…

…just my opinion though, please take it or leave it…

Colleen Hammond’s book " Dressing with Dignity ".

“in order that uniformity of understanding prevail in all institutions of religious women … we recall that a dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper "

Read that:

mamaslittleditty.blogspot.fr/2011/08/attention-marylike-modesty-supporters.html

Does the document exist? Where is it coming from? Is it a fake? no evidence???

 

[Cat]

OP, what do YOU wear to a beach? Is it cute and flattering, yet modest?

Preach by example rather than words. Wear the cutest, most fashionable, MODEST swimsuit that you can buy. The Olympic “skinsuits” are quite modest, and they are worn by serious athletes, not girls trying to look sexy. Perhaps that would be a good option for you. And there are other suits that are adorable, yet modest. Look for them.

Also, keep in mind that many boys and men will be aroused by a woman no matter WHAT she wears. A woman can be completely covered and modest in her demeanor, but many men will find THAT arousing. Many men are aroused merely by pretty hair, or pretty eyes, or even by manicured nails or a pedicure. A woman can never dress modestly enough for some men! That’s the way God made men–this hyper-sensitivity to a woman’s appearance ensures that men will seek a mate and reproduce. It is a man’s cross/task to figure out how to deal with the constant twitches and itches they experience whenever a woman crosses their path. Most men learn how to manage themselves and their bodies, so IMO, just stop worrying about them and let them work it out. The men who don’t work it out will be aroused even if you show up in a caftan and a burka.

 

[crenfro]

No, it is all – both men and women-- our task to avoid the near occasion of sin, but for the grace of God go I.

It is a man’s cross/task to figure out how to deal with the constant twitches and itches they experience whenever a woman crosses their path.

 

[fpt]

This document is the letter of 28th August 1928 from Congregation for Religious, published in Italian in the « Commentarium pro religiosis » (1928, volume 9, pages 414 - 415), but translated in English langage by Fr John Rubba O.P.

— Letter of the Congregation for Religious
To The Ordinaries of Italy : regarding the crusade against immodest fashions, especially in schools directed by women Religious.
Circular.
Most Illustrious and Reverend Sir, well known to you are the grave words of condemnation which the Holy Father spoke, on several occasions, with apostolic authority, against the immodest fashion of women’s dress which prevails today to the detriment of good breeding.
Suffice it to recall the very grave words, charged with grief and admonition, with which in the discourse of August 15th current, in the consistorial chamber, promulgating the decree on the heroic virtues of Venerable Paola Frassinetti, His Holiness denounced once again the danger which, by its seductive fascination, threatens so many unwary souls, who profess to belong to the flock of Jesus Christ and to His Holy Church.
It is painful to point out in this regard that the deplorable custom tends to insinuate itself among young girls who frequent, as extern pupils, some of the schools directed by Sisters and Sunday-school classes which are held in female religious institutions.
In order to confront a danger which, by spreading, becomes ever more grave, this Sacred Congregation, by order of the Holy Father, calls upon the Ordinaries of Italy so that they may communicate to the superiors of the houses of female religious in their respective dioceses the following injunctions of this Sacred Congregation, confirmed by His Holiness in audience this day :
a) In all schools, academies, recreation centers, Sunday schools, and laboratories directed by female religious, not to be admitted from now on are those girls who do not observe in their attire the rules of modesty and Christian decency.
b) To this end, the superiors themselves will be obliged to exercise a close supervision and exclude peremptorily from the schools and projects of their institutions those pupils who do not conform to these prescriptions.
c) They must not be influenced in this by any human respect, either for material considerations or by reason of the social prestige and of the families of their pupils, even though the student body should diminish in number.
d) Furthermore, the Sisters, in fulfillment of their educational pursuits, must endeavor to inculcate sweetly and strongly in their pupils the love and relish for holy modesty, the sign and guardian of purity and delicate adornment of womankind.
Your Reverence will be vigilant that these injunctions be exactly observed and that there be perfect conformity of conduct among all the institutes of female religious in the diocese.
You will severely call to task whoever should fail in this, and should any abuse be prolonged, you will notify this Sacred Congregation.
With deepest esteem, I remain,
Devotedly yours,
Camillo Cardinal Laurenti, Prefect
Sacred Congregation for Religious
Vincent La Puma, Secretary

Here, no sentence concerning the centimeter precisions.

The " important document ", on which the author organizes almost all her reasoning, should be checked. Is it real and true? Where is it? Is it a fake and an intellectual invention coming from some lay persons, priests and friends? She needs to give us the original source of this document.

A good book!!!, be careful, be careful.

 

[fpt]

Dressing with Dignity!!! A honest book???

This is a sample of the instruction, the letter of 12th jannuary 1930 from Congregation of Council (In latine langage), published into the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (year 1930, volume 22st, pages 26-28).

DE INHONESTO FEMINARUM VESTIENDI MORE
Vi supremi apostolatus, quo in universa Ecclesia divinitus fungitur, Ssmus Dominus Noster Pius Papa XI verbis et scriptis nunquam destitit illud S. Pauli (I ad Tim., II, 9,10) inculcare, videlicet : « mulieres in habitu ornato cum verecundia et sobrietate ornantes se, et… quod decet mulieres, promittentes pietatem per opera bona ».
Ac saepenumero, occasione data, idem Summus Pontifex improbavit acerrimeque damnavit inhonestum vestiendi morem in catholicarum quoque mulierum ac puellarum usum hodie passim inductum, qui non modo femineum decus atque ornamentum graviter offendit, sed nedum in temporalem earumdem feminarum perniciem verum etiam, quod peius est, in sempiternam, itemque in aliorum ruinam miserrime vertit.
Nihil igitur mirum, si Episcopi ceterique locorum Ordinarii, sicut decet ministros Christi, in sua quisque dioecesi pravae huiusmodi licentiae ac procacitati modis omnibus unaque voce obstiterunt, derisiones nonnumquam ac ludibria ob hanc causam sibi a malevolis illata aequo fortique animo tolerantes.

…

Quod ut facilius ac tutius ad effectum deducatur, haec Sacra Congregatio, de mandato Sanctissimi Domini, ea quae sequuntur ad rem statuere decrevit :
I. Parochi praesertim et concionatores, data occasione, secundum illud Apostoli Pauli (II ad Tim., IV, 2) instent, arguant, obsecrent, increpent ut feminae vestes gestent, quae verecundiam sapiant quaeque sint ornamentum et praesidium virtutis ; moneantque parentes ne filiae indecoras vestes gestare sinant.
II. Parentes, memores gravissimae obligationis qua tenentur prolis educationem in primis religiosam et moralem curandi, peculiarem adhibeant diligentiam, ut puellae a primis annis in doctrina christiana solide instituantur atque in earum animo ipsi, verbis et exemplo, amorem virtutum modestiae et castitatis impense foveant ; familiam vero, Sacrae Familiae exempla imitati, ita constituere atque gubernare satagant, ut singuli verecundiae amandae atque servandae inter domesticos parietes habeant causam et invitamentum.
III. Parentes iidem filias a publicis exercitationibus et concursibus gymmcis arceant ; si vero eisdem filiae interesse cogantur, curent ut vestes adhibeant quae honestatem plene praeseferant ; inhonestas vero vestes illas gestare nunquam sinant.
IV. Collegiorum moderatrices et scholarum magistrae modestiae amore puellarum animos ita imbuere enitantur, ut eaedem ad honeste vestiendum efficaciter inducantur.
V. Eaedem moderatrices ac magistrae puellas, ne ipsarum quidem matribus exceptis, quae vestes minus honestas gestent, in collegia et scholas ne admittant, admissasque, nisi resipiscant, dimittant.
VI. Religiosae, iuxta litteras die xxiii mensis Augusti, anno MDCCCCXXVIII, datas a Sacra Congregatione de Religiosis, in sua collegia, scholas, oratoria, recreatoria puellas ne admittant, admissas ne tolerent, quae christianum vestiendi morem non servent : ipsae vero in alumnis educandis peculiare adhibeant studium, ut in earum animo sancti pudoris et verecundiae christianae amor altas radices agat.
VI .That religious, according to the letter of 23 August in the year 1928, emanating from the Sacred Congregation for Religious, do not admit in their colleges, schools, oratories, playgrounds, and once admitted will not tolerate those who do not observe the Christian custom of dressing: but they themselves take special care to ensure that by educating students, the love of holy modesty and Christian modesty is deeply rooted in their minds.

VII. Piae instituantur et foveantur feminarum Associationes, quae consilio, exemplo et opere finem sibi praestituant cohibendi abusus in vestibus gestandis christianae modestiae haud congruentibus et promovendi morum puritatem ac vestiendi honestatem.
VIII. In pias Associationes feminarum ne illae admittantur, quae inhonestas vestes induant ; admissae vero, si quid postea hac in re peccent et monitae non resipiscant, expellantur.
IX. Puellae et mulieres, quae inhonestas vestes induunt, a Sancta Communione et a munere matrinae in sacramentis Baptismi et Confirmationis arceantur, atque, si casus ferat, ab ipso ecclesiae ingressu prohibeantur.
X. Cum incidunt per annum festa, quae modestiae christianae inculcandam peculiarem exhibeant opportunitatem, praesertim vero festa B. M. Virginis, parochi et sacerdotes piarum Unionum et Catholicarum Consociationum moderatores feminas ad christianum vestiendi morem, opportuno sermone revocare atque excitare ne praetermittant. In festo autem Beatae Mariae Virginis sine labe conceptae peculiares preces in omnibus cathedralibus et paroecialibus ecclesiis quovis anno peragantur, habitis, ubi fieri potest, opportunis cohortationibus in sollemni ad populum concione.
XI. Consilium dioecesanum a vigilantia, de quo in declaratione Sancti Officii die xxii mensis Martii, a. MDCCCCXVIII data, semel saltem in anno de aptioribus modis ac rationibus ad feminarum modestiae efficaciter consulendum ex professo agat.
XII. Quo vero haec salutaris actio efficaciter et tutior succedat, Episcopi aliique locorum Ordinarii, tertio quoque anno, una simul cum relatione de religiosa, institutione, de qua in Litteris Orbem catholicum die xxix mensis Iunii, anno MDCCCCXX…

Datum Romae, ex aedibus Sacrae Congregationis Concilii, die xii mensis Ianuarii in festo Sacrae Familiae, anno MDCCCCXXX.
Donato Card. SBARETTI, Episc. Sabinen, et Mandelen., Praefectus.
L. + S. Iulius, Ep. Lampsacen., Secretarius.

**
Here, no sentence concerning the centimeter precisions.**

Colleen Hammond has to search the real documents!!!

 

[thewanderer]

No, it is all – both men and women-- our task to avoid the near occasion of sin, but for the grace of God go I.

No, this is false. It is not a woman’s job to prevent a man from lusting. That is the man’s job. Yes, women must dress modestly, but that is not the same thing at all. If you read the Catechism you will see that modesty ultimately isn’t really about preventing others from lusting, but about treating yourself with the respect and dignity you deserve and presenting yourself as such to others. The sin of a man’s lust is his own sin, not the sin of the woman he lusted after.

 

[Estevao]

Looks like we’re “gun shy” and “out marketed” on modesty too, to use his eminence Cardinal Dolan’s expressions. Don’t be surprised then when, just like with all the other things having to do with chastity, the Catholic Church’s position grows more unpopular even among Catholics.

 

[Sky_River]

I don’t have a problem thinking dirty thoughts about my friends. If I just dropped them I wouldn’t be a very good person. If I don’t at least mention it to them I would be falling to love them and falling what Jesus called me to do. When Jesus someone sin he didn’t judge them he forgave them and told them SIN NO MORE. So I don’t judge my friends but I will encourage them not to sin. Though my friends aren’t sinning

How do you encourage others not to sin? What do you say to them?