Modesty as an act of charity

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DarkLight said:
I’d separate out “he’s not wanted” and “he’s harassing you.” Making an approach and getting rejected isn’t harassment, if the approach itself is within acceptable bounds. (For an obvious example - the guy yelling out the car window what he’s like to do with my body is already harassment, because that’s just not an acceptable way to speak to a strange woman.)
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Yea but there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and persistence up to a point can be endearing.
 
High heels, tight skirts etc can just be lumped with ‘looking good’. No, they’re not competing with each other for men, lol. At least not consciously. Women are extremely judgemental of each other and you would be surprised to know that a lot of women actually dress up for each other rather for men. For some sort of approval, especially if her friends are very attractive.

The reason why I brought up nice modest clothing and makeup is that they have a similar element of attracting men in it. If red lipstick was absolutely repulsive to a large majority of men, it won’t be considered typical makeup. Same with men and their grooming. But that does not mean a woman wearing red lipstick is trying to get the attention of a male. Same with someone with cleavage. It’s so normalized in our society that it’s absolutely uncommon to see a woman wearing such clothing without the intention of attracting anybody. In her mind, she could just want to look “nice”.

But anyway, your argument is flawed because you are insinuating that there is a link between clothing and harassment. A random guy could perceive that I’m trying to attract him because I’m wearing makeup and a nice dress. That doesn’t make it accurate.

The main thing is that the guy is the one that thinks she’s trying to get attention and then makes his move. Yall are not mindless robots, you’re in control of your actions and you know that a random half naked woman in the street does not care for you.

It makes no sense to bring up women’s attire in issues like this because it implies that the burden is on them (to make sure they are not giving off “cues”). Women should dress modestly, but it’s not because they would not send off signals to men.

You said I am miscontruing what you said but you literally just said what I said in the next sentence? You’re implying that the difference between harassment and courting is whether the woman likes the man or not. Like what DarkLight said, it’s not the same behaviors from a different man.

And yes I deny that clothing sends signals. Clothes don’t send signals, they’re inanimate. The woman is not sending off vibes that I pick up (let’s pretend I’m a guy). It’s my brain that perceives clothes and forms an impression, she literally did not do anything besides being in my field of sight. Hence, the onus is on me. And common sense will tell me that she doesn’t care for my attention and if she’s trying to attract anyone, it’s for someone she likes (and even then, the attention of someone should not be conflated with harassment, she could want Jack to think she looks sexy and maybe ask her out, but that doesn’t mean she want Jack to touch her or say perverted things. Jack should not think her wanting his attention=her wanting him to do stuff to her).
 
What is deemed harassment is highly subjective. Some women may laugh off a pass and others get offended right away, maybe they are just in a foul mood. Some guys are even a bit slow in reading a brush off, and persist, perhaps their mind clouded by alcohol.

What I’ve tried to say over many posts in several threads is that:

Clothing choice broadly sends out non verbal cues and seductive attire will increase attention from the male of the species, even if that was not the woman’s intent or conscious desire.

That you imagine choice of attire doesn’t send a signal is ridiculous. Are you playing a game by dissociating the wear makes a choice in their clothing and mannerisms from the clothing itself? Why do you think a street walker selects the attire they choose, or a stripper? It doesn’t matter if the signal was intentional, it still may have been received based on cultural norms.

In saying attire makes a difference I’m not saying it justifies assault or any degree of legal harassment. But clothing choice can increase the level of male attention, and some of that attention may be unwanted or even illegal.

I do agree that cultural norms are shifting and such as showing cleavage doesn’t send the same strong signal as pre-70’s cleavage.
 
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Theo520 said:
What is deemed harassment is highly subjective. Some women may laugh off a pass and others get offended right away, maybe they are just in a foul mood. Some guys are even a bit slow in reading a brush off, and persist, perhaps their mind clouded by alcohol.
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Issues of how clear things are aside - the fact that the edges between two things may be fuzzy in some cases, doesn’t mean they’re essentially the same thing.

And unfortunately there’s some pretty good evidence that certain men become explicitly deaf to signals when sexual interest is involved - signals they would otherwise understand.
 
DarkLight said:
And unfortunately there’s some pretty good evidence that certain men become explicitly deaf to signals when sexual interest is involved - signals they would otherwise understand.
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Why are you stating this? None here have said otherwise, some men would make a pass at a senior Nun in her penguin outfit.

The fact that some men are clueless doesn’t negate that the vast majority do pick up on cues from women, some intentional and some not.
 
misstherese said:
Not extreme. It’s common to find that opinion among those who dress modestly. If it’s hot out, a mid length dress is sufficient to cool down and to be modest as well.

Besides, I find it uncomfortable myself to wear shorter shorts or shorter dresses because it reveals too much while attempting to sit down.
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You can wear what you want but you should not be telling other women what they should and shouldn’t wear. It sounds like you want women to walk around dressed like Muslim women or Amish women!!
 
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Theo520 said:
Clothing choice broadly sends out non verbal cues and seductive attire will increase attention from the male of the species, even if that was not the woman’s intent or conscious desire.

That you imagine choice of attire doesn’t send a signal is ridiculous. Are you playing a game by dissociating the wear makes a choice in their clothing and mannerisms from the clothing itself? Why do you think a street walker selects the attire they choose, or a stripper? It doesn’t matter if the signal was intentional, it still may have been received based on cultural norms.
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What you’ve said seems so obvious that I have a hard time believing people doubt it. Nobody should be surprised if they dress like a fireman that they might get called on to put out some fires.

When I got to Saudi for work I always dress in formal clothes with long sleeves and covered shoes. It isn’t that I respect Saudi culture, which I have very little regard for, it’s simply that I wish to avoid attention from anyone for any reason whatsoever. Conservative clothing goes a long way to allowing me to move through a country almost invisible. Probably easier for an old fat man to be invisible than a sexually attractive young lady but clothing will certainly help.
 
Werbenjagermanjensen said:
Nobody should be surprised if they dress like a fireman that they might get called on to put out some fires.
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Putting out fires is a firefighter’s job. It’s not a woman’s job to sate the lust of every man who whistles at her.
 
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You’re being disingenuous here. misstherese’s first post said it was her opinion. Everything after that was still her opinion about shorter skirts in response to people giving their disagreement with her opinion. She was clarifying why she thinks shorter skirts can be immodest. I didn’t find any statements where she is telling other women what to wear.

A mid length skirt is hardly Muslim or Amish dress.
 
“Keep honest people honest.” That’s my approach.

There are simple guidelines. Think aesthetically. Where are the lines on your outfit drawing the eyes? What’s the focal point? Do you step back and see the whole or are you drawn to certain areas or body parts? What’s the overall “feel” of your outfit?

Now practically, some women will have bodies where certain parts are natural focal points. I am in the camp that believes neither in “minimizing” nor “flaunting”. Middle of the road leads to less frustration and heartache. Try to exercise charity with those who don’t share your body type because they will be full of advice and opinions without a true understanding of the situation or problems with executing their advice.

The most useful advice I have received was don’t show skin if you show shape, if you show skin don’t show shape. If I break both of those rules, it is rare, and I am going somewhere with my husband. (My mom defended her 60s mini dresses from old photos because “she was married” which I found hilarious, but I get what she was saying now.)

Modesty is often attitude. For the following, I am not talking about abuse or assault which are both crimes. Not letting men treat you disrespectfully goes a long way. Unless the man is your father or your husband (and there are exceptions to that), your clothes and body are NOT appropriate topics of conversations. If a guy comments on one of those things and you are not interested in him, shut him down. Treat yourself with respect and it will be far more likely men will be respectful, if they aren’t…leave. If they want the pleasure of your company, they need to treat you right.

Most do, if you find most don’t…find a better caliber of men to be around.
 
Not every woman’s job but that is certainly the job description of a prostitute. That’s exactly what sex workers would put on their CV if they had CVs, “10 years experience sating lust.”

You are certainly free to dress however you see fit but it certainly seems odd to say that the way clothe ourselves offers no signal to the outside world and that we shouldn’t expect to be treated differently based on how we dress.
 
Some points to consider
  1. Modesty is a virtue not a dress code. But how we dress can be a reflection of our possession of it.
  2. We are not to lead others into sin, not only for the sake of the other but because we shouldn’t want to be part of an offense against God. Scripture is clear on this. Women having responsibility in how they dress is not the same as saying they are fully responsible for men’s sin or that men don’t have their own responsibility. How a woman is dressed, does not justify harassment.
If modesty is a virtue and not a dress code, then men must have this virtue as well. Trying to get into someone’s pants (or skirt)is not modest. Pulling a comment from an article I’ll leave a link to below, "St. Thomas says that it is the virtue by which we rightly regulate our conduct in respect to those things that can lead to impure thoughts, desires, and actions, in ourselves and in others. "

Modesty for men in relation to women is for them to regulate their conduct in how they approach them, speak with them, think of them and treat them in general. Modesty is not a female virtue. It requires the same of men.

Another quote

“Again, in his encyclical letter on Holy Virginity, our Holy Father writes about modesty: …For, modesty foresees threatening danger, forbids us to expose ourselves to risks, demands the avoidance of those occasions which the imprudent do not shun. It does not like impure or loose talk, it shrinks from the slightest immodesty, it carefully avoids suspect familiarity with persons of the other sex. . . . He who possesses the treasure of Christian modesty abominates every sin of impurity and instantly flees whenever he is tempted by its seductions.”

Every one we see or come in contact with is struggling with the consequences of original sin. We have a responsibility for our sin and that of others.
  1. It doesn’t matter what is common for people in a culture to wear if the purpose of the items worn is to be “sexy.” Let’s face it. A lot of our fashion is designed with that idea in mind. Clothes can be both attractive and pretty but if they are cut to emphasize sex appeal then that is not modest.
  2. Even if a woman is dressing for other women, that doesn’t take modesty out of the equation because it’s more than whether it will attract sexual attention. That’s just one component of it. The Catholic dictionary states “Humility is the ground of modesty in that it curbs the inordinate desire for personal excellence and inclines one to recognize his or her own worth in its true light.”
  3. Modesty is also about recognizing and honoring our God-given dignity so it’s not just about how others see us but how we see ourselves.
  4. Our own modesty for the sake of other’s also means they have the same obligations towards us so it’s not a one way street. Denying our own responsibility means we are denying that others have that same obligation towards us.
 
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Werbenjagermanjensen said:
Not every woman’s job but that is certainly the job description of a prostitute. That’s exactly what sex workers would put on their CV if they had CVs, “10 years experience sating lust.”
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It only makes sense to bring that up if men primarily harass women because they assume they’re prostitutes, which is certainly not the case.
 
You are missing her point. Dressing a certain way is likely to get you certain types of attention. So if you don’t want that attention, not dressing that way REDUCES your chances of getting that attention.

Which is why Moms and dads everywhere say things like “You aren’t going out of the house like THAT!”

This is true everywhere. Lawyers talk to their clients about how to dress in the court room. Businesses have dress codes. People change their clothes depending on how they want to be treated. Movie after movie works on this theme from rom coms to undercover police thrillers. It is the nature of people.

Dressing immodestly and expecting guys to treat you like the queen is a recipe for exasperation. (No, the guy should not touch you…everyone agrees on that.)
 
I’m not telling anyone what to wear. I’m pointing out why wearing a short dress or short shorts is not a good idea.

Please tell me how wearing a dress or skirt past the knees or jeans that aren’t too short makes someone look Amish or Muslim? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.
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Does she look Amish to you?
 
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I was watching those videos you posted. I would be annoyed if I was a woman and guys were doing that. I’d have my purse in one hand and pepper spray or mace in the other. 🙂 .


(“Hey, do you want some of this?”)

Woman’s Best Friend 🙂
 
Elizabeth3 said:
Having said that, the above principle of the male’s responsibility doesn’t mean that women should have license to walk down the street naked or dressed in a sexually provocative way, not because they should be legally responsible if a man commits a crime against them or that it legally mitigates his responsibility, but because it’s uncharitable.
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It is uncharitable, and if we accept that persons who would do the wrong thing, or would harm us, exist, then such an act is potentially foolish, creates personal risk for ourselves and in fact increases the risk we will be harmed. It is true that none of this excuses the actions of another, but it should make clear our act also was not good.
 
Rau said:
It is uncharitable, and if we accept that persons who would do the wrong thing, or would harm us, exist, then such an act is potentially foolish, creates personal risk for ourselves and in fact increases the risk we will be harmed. It is true that none of this excuses the actions of another, but it should make clear our act also was not good.
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It’s kinda like leaving your car window rolled down or your front door obviously ajar. People who have a predilection for theft or some other harm will notice and target you.
 
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