Modesty as an act of charity

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She looks absolutely lovely here, but to be fair, if a not so attractive woman were to wear this, she would look like she’s frumpy instantly. Looks really help when it comes to stuff like this
 
And I’ve already told you that the attention elicited from whatever you think gives off cues is not and should not be related to harassment.
 
Lea101 said:
She looks absolutely lovely here, but to be fair, if a not so attractive woman were to wear this, she would look like she’s frumpy instantly. Looks really help when it comes to stuff like this
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You’re right, Lea101. Not every cut and style will work for every woman’s body which is why we should all choose modest clothing that makes the most of our figure, whatever it may be.
 
Lea101 said:
And I’ve already told you that the attention elicited from whatever you think gives off cues is not and should not be related to harassment.
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Absolutely correct. Sexual harassment is not modest behavior which obliges the man to moderate his own conduct no matter how attractive the woman is to him.
 
Lea101 said:
And I’ve already told you that the attention elicited from whatever you think gives off cues is not and should not be related to harassment.
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Was Al Franken’s faux grope with photo sexual harassment?

I think it was harassment but wouldn’t qualify in a legal case. Guess we have different working definitions of harassment.
 
It’s just a dress…I’m talking about length, not necessarily fit.

If it were a shorter dress the same thing would apply, that it might not look as good on a less attractive person.
 
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If a woman’s dress encourages sexual harassment or assault, wearing designer clothes encourage robbery. That’s to say the idea is pretty absurd. Not that people shouldn’t dress modestly… But saying it encourages men seems a touch silly.
 
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I completely agree with this, Elizabeth. It is a concise rendering of my recent thoughts on the matter.
 
KathleenT said:
You are missing her point. Dressing a certain way is likely to get you certain types of attention. So if you don’t want that attention, not dressing that way REDUCES your chances of getting that attention.
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The key for a lot of us is that “dressing a certain way” doesn’t necessarily mean we were being immodest. I got a lot of attention for putting on a blouse and a long skirt, doing my makeup and putting my hair up so it would look neat and done. I would certainly have gotten a lot less attention if I’d worn a baggy t-shirt and jeans. But does that really mean I should avoid wearing anything nice because it draws that sort of attention?
 
Leaving my doors unlocked only keeps out crooks, but they need to change anyway. 🤨
 
Werbenjagermanjensen said:
Leaving my doors unlocked only keeps out crooks, but they need to change anyway. 🤨
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Not an effective parallel. It’s a given for most that you shouldn’t steal other people’s stuff - same can’t be said when it comes to sexual harassment.
 
TheAmazingGrace said:
Not an effective parallel. It’s a given for most that you shouldn’t steal other people’s stuff - same can’t be said when it comes to sexual harassment.
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Well, no, most people do not believe that it’s ok to sexually harass women.

As for theft, it’s only a given for “most people” if you exclude all the crooks. Most people may not steal your car but the majority of the world has no problem stealing your album, book, software, invention. But, hey, it isn’t wise or beneficial to protect yourself because the world is what’s in need of a change. I should be able to walk down the street with my intellectual property completely hanging out and nobody should think anything of it.
 
I didn´t expect that my first post here would be on this topic but just yesterday I had a good laugh on men´s expense and today I encountered this thread so… it kind of invited itself.
You all talk about theoretical situations but what about something from real life?
My best friend is a physiotherapist and she drinks the water she preaches, which means that she carries herself as everyone should - torso straight, head up, shoulders back… you can see the picture.
She also practices a lot of sports and therefore has a wonderful figure - slim, fit, perfectly toned. She loves swimming, actually takes it quite seriously and even invested in a very expensive professional swimming suit, the knee long onepiece, which in my opinion is the most modest swimsuit you can find.
Aaand she is asexual. Which means her only interest in men is their damaged joints, tendons and muscles. Other than that all men could cease to exist, and she wouldn´t care. So in her case trying to impress men is absolutely out of question.
So imagine this - she is walking in her “empress of the universe” style clad in her professional swimsuit with only her usual twenty pool lengths on her mind and has no idea that she is making men stumble - literally! They were gaping at her and tripping over their own feet, one of them straight into the pool. I watched all this from behind and was in stitches.
So my question for the guardians of morality here is: Was she uncharitable? And if she was, what she should do about it? Wear burkini? Start slouching? Stop going to the swimming pool?
 
What I found quite interesting though was that there were younger women wearing bikini, and they did not provoke such strong reaction from men as she did. Actually they didn´t provoke any reaction at all. So there has to be something else, something that has nothing to do with clothes, but maybe with attitude? Like the men sensed that my friend was NOT the one to be conquered easily? I don´t know, but it seems that things are not as simple as “dress modestly and men won´t lust about you”.
 
The comment I was replying to was talking about dressing like a prositute. That may not have been clear because I replied right after the post and that means the website didn’t give the reply to icon on my post.
 
Triglava said:
I don´t know, but it seems that things are not as simple as “dress modestly and men won´t lust about you”.
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Things are not as simple as “dress modestly and men won´t lust about you.” No one is saying that. We don’t have full control of what another person does with their behavior but we do have some responsibility to not intentionally seek to elicit an immodest response from others.

Modesty is a virtue that recognizes the value of each person and can inspire how we choose to dress. You may want to read through the thread above if you haven’t already or just skimmed it. There is a good bit of food for thought. I’ll also add what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say and that might make it more clear. It is much, much more than “dress modestly so men won’t lust.” Modesty has much to do with how you choose to behave in all areas, so men don’t get some kind of pass from cultivating the virtue either. If more men were working on this virtue, we would see much less sexual harassment but ultimately both sexes are required to do their part.
  1. Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
  2. Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires ones choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
  3. There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body… Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
 
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xNoOnex said:
If a woman’s dress encourages sexual harassment or assault, wearing designer clothes encourage robbery. That’s to say the idea is pretty absurd. Not that people shouldn’t dress modestly… But saying it encourages men seems a touch silly.
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You are exaggerating and ignore the truth of it.

Sexualized clothing mostly definitely does increase contacts from males, and a small amount of that interest very likely could be categorized as harassment.

Wearing a rolex and lots of expensive jewelry does make you a more likely target of robbery, especially if walking at night in the wrong part of town.
 
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