Modesty for women and men

[OurBeloved]

---

Again – you are talking of an actual crime. Only God knows the true intent – of someone buying clothes at a store.

You are dodging the fact here that you got proven wrong, no?

You said that we can never judge intent. But it appears that we do so all the time in courts. Whether it is over an actual crime or not is irrelevant. What stands out here is that we can make reasonable judgements about intent.

 

[OurBeloved]

from looking over his post I’m pretty sure he was not trying to say that women are not responsible in any instance. Instead he was talking about an instance where a woman dresses in an attractive (as opposed to sexy) manner and claiming that if a man lusts after this woman it is not her fault. In other words, its fine for women to wear attractive clothing.

Well, I am sure he wouldn’t mind me revealing that extra bit of information then. The more rigorous we are the better after all

 

[Walking_Home]

You are dodging the fact here that you got proven wrong, no?

You said that we can never judge intent. But it appears that we do so all the time in courts. Whether it is over an actual crime or not is irrelevant. What stands out here is that we can make reasonable judgements about intent.

---

You want to take the place of God - go at it.

 

[OurBeloved]

---

You want to take the place of God - go at it.

Lets not make this about me and God.

The simple matter here is that we make reasonable judgements on intent all the time and we act on them. Parents do that all the time about their kids. Judges over the people involved in the legal cases etc.

So your idea that ‘‘we cannot judge the intent of a woman who dresses a certain way’’ is unfounded. We can indeed make a very reasonable judgement about her intent and then act on it by advising her.

What is kind of nifty here is that when we do advice her, regardless of her intent, it does her good anyway. So in either case, you shouldn’t be too worried I think because all that is important is one makes a reasonable judgement and act on it. In fact, what is required is only a judgement of the dress it-self rather than intent. The fact that the woman is wearing a bad dress would mean either

1. She is ignorant of the problem with the dress
2. She is wearing it with the intent to sexually appeal

In both cases, the cure is to tell them right away that their dress is inappropriate. It will also help if society in general would shun these kind of dresses. The reason why many women probably build up a bad taste in dresses is probably because the society promotes sexually appealing clothing and apparel and want them to be sexually appealing.

 

[Baelor]

So considering you claim yourself that you are unable to judge the mental state of others (as you have stated above), how do you claim to have read the mind and intentions of all the students on your college campus, if I may ask?

I never claimed to, which is why I presented more than one option for explaining the phenomenon in question

The problem here is that you are assuming people are unaware of what needs to be private and what is indeed tempting to others.

I think that that is a reasonable assumption. The fact that some people believe that shoulders need to be covered, in this very thread no less, tells me that there is confusion as to what needs to be covered. And I have yet to see any empirical evidence that particular body parts are attractive. Such information would be a germane and welcome addition to this conversation.

Since I feel that I can actually make judgement calls on the mental state of others, I will comfortably say that people are indeed aware of what is tempting to others.

And since I do not believe that you can, I will comfortably say that your statement has no validity until you provide proof that you can.

Girls and Women don’t simply wear clothes out of stupidity or ignorance but they do to get others sexually attracted to them or make others feel that they are sexually attractive. This is what our society promotes today.

Prove it. Show me that sex appeal is the major criterion in picking out outfits.

So the women who dress immodestly today are indeed guilty of doing something immoral.

Yes, because such clothing is inherent problematic, independent of intent.

What you have to realize is that johnnyjones is not trying to prove that person X is sinning. He already knows person X is sinning when he looks at the woman and realizes that she is revealing her-self with the intent of appealing to the sexual faculties.

I understand exactly what he is saying, and the generalization he is willing to make is one that he is unable to make, hence the problem.

Unless johnnyjones is an Enunuch he should have no problem realizing it when it happens.

I am not a eunuch and can feel nothing when I see a woman naked or in short shorts, so clearly having a penis is not the sole criterion. Nor is being heterosexual, which I am. If a person finds noses titillating, are all women obligated to cover their noses? What if 1.5 billion men do?

So there is really nothing to prove. The Scripture and Church Tradition are both clear that whoever tempts the other is committing a sin. It is also clear that whoever acts on the temptation is also committing a sin.

I agree entirely.

What is given here is advice. You can either heed it or go on your merry way. The proof of the validity of the advice will be observed by the person when they get to heaven or if they disregarded it, when they got to hell.

Yeah, okay, “advice.” Given this statement, I am happy that I have posted, if only to point out the obvious problems in your statements.

I too was like you in college but what you will have to realize at some point in life is that not everything is about winning an argument.

Strange, I thought this thread was about providing accurate and beneficial information on modesty. Should I instead think about winning an argument that I had no idea was taking place?

I am saying that WE CAN make a reasonably judgement of intent because we do that all the time even in criminal justice courts.

On an individual basis, for one, not on a general scale. And second, the evidence is never so sparse as, “X is wearing revealing clothing.” Third, we can never know intent unless we take the person at face value and they tell us.

 

[OurBeloved]

On an individual basis, for one, not on a general scale. And second, the evidence is never so sparse as, “X is wearing revealing clothing.” Third, we can never know intent unless we take the person at face value and they tell us.

I am not going to bother with the rest honestly.

But I want to ask you about this fascinating insight about intent. Are you saying that we are unable to make a reasonable judgement on intent all the time?

What happens in criminal courts when they judge intent?

Honestly, I think one of your premises should be thrown right out of the window. We can and do practically make reasonable judgements of intent.

 

[thewanderer]

Lets not make this about me and God.

The simple matter here is that we make reasonable judgements on intent all the time and we act on them. Parents do that all the time about their kids. Judges over the people involved in the legal cases etc.

yes of course we do

So your idea that ‘‘we cannot judge the intent of a woman who dresses a certain way’’ is unfounded. We can indeed make a very reasonable judgement about her intent and then act on it by advising her.

I disagree with this. If all you are going off of is the fact that she is wearing something too revealing, you have no right to make such a judgement. It is often the case that there are other reasons behind the fact that she is wearing what she does.

What is kind of nifty here is that when we do advice her, regardless of her intent, it does her good anyway. So in either case, you shouldn’t be too worried I think because all that is important is one makes a reasonable judgement and act on it. In fact, what is required is only a judgement of the dress it-self.

I would just like to point out that if somebody is going to tell somebody they are wearing something inappropriate they have to make sure
a) that the clothing actually *is inappropriate. Different people have different standards of modesty, some of which are obviously over cautious. You wouldn’t want to be spreading mis-information.
b) that it is appropriate for them to bring this up with the person they want to talk about it with.
c) that they do this in such a way that it is made very clear *to the person they are talking to that they are in no way making a judgement on the intent of the person involved, both through words, tone of voice, and body language.

 

[OurBeloved]

I disagree with this. If all you are going off of is the fact that she is wearing something too revealing, you have no right to make such a judgement. It is often the case that there are other reasons behind the fact that she is wearing what she does.

Yes, if you notice my full reply to you, I am not denying there are other reasons for wearing sexually appealing dresses.

I would just like to point out that if somebody is going to tell somebody they are wearing something inappropriate they have to make sure
a) that the clothing actually is inappropriate. Different people have different standards of modesty, some of which are obviously over cautious. You wouldn’t want to be spreading mis-information.
b) that it is appropriate for them to bring this up with the person they want to talk about it with.
c) that they do this in such a way that it is made very clear to the person they are talking to that they are in no way making a judgement on the intent of the person involved, both through words, tone of voice, and body language.

Well I am not even sure why we are debating any of the above. We are considering the situation where a woman** is** wearing something inappropriate and we go and inform them about the dress. So there is nothing to make sure in that case anyway.

Maybe something that would make you more comfortable, perhaps it is better for us in society to object to inappropriate clothes when they see them in stores it-self and start shunning them and early adopters of such clothes.

As for appropriateness, anyone should be able to bring it up. Otherwise the system won’t work.

And really, something else I noticed, the issue here is salvation. Not being able to wear a certain dress due to possible misinformation should be the least of your concerns right?

I think we all need to make sure we have our priorities straight. Then we would have less infighting between each other and more work done on getting rid of this filth passing as clothing from our society.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes, if you notice my full reply to you, I am not denying there are other reasons for wearing sexually appealing dresses.

Yes, I replied to your post before it was edited, so I had not seen your inclusion that there can be other motives for wearing something revealing. I’m glad we are in agreement here.

Well I am not even sure why we are debating any of the above. We are considering the situation where a woman** is** wearing something inappropriate and we go and inform them about the dress. So there is nothing to make sure in that case anyway.

Maybe something that would make you more comfortable, perhaps it is better for us in society to object to inappropriate clothes when they see them in stores it-self and start shunning them and early adopters of such clothes.

As for appropriateness, anyone should be able to bring it up. Otherwise the system won’t work.

And really, something else I noticed, the issue here is salvation. Not being able to wear a certain dress due to possible misinformation should be the least of your concerns right?

I think we all need to make sure we have our priorities straight. Then we would have less infighting between each other and more work done on getting rid of this filth passing as clothing from our society.

I was just trying to point out things that should be considered before deciding to go confront someone about there apparal. As you yourself said, the more rigorous we are about this matter the better. If it is just left at ‘it is good to inform people that they are wearing something innapropriate’ beccause it is good for them to hear it, then it is all too likely that people will take that out of context and use it to justify actions which really aren’t ok.

 

[OurBeloved]

I was just trying to point out things that should be considered before deciding to go confront someone about there apparal. As you yourself said, the more rigorous we are about this matter the better. If it is just left at ‘it is good to inform people that they are wearing something innapropriate’ beccause it is good for them to hear it, then it is all too likely that people will take that out of context and use it to justify actions which really aren’t ok.

Understandable

From what I have observed in other cultures that encourage growth of personal sensitivity and modesty, these minor things usually fall in to place after awhile.

I would think we had such things that were passed down from generation to generation and held in general by everyone by our culture as well. But since our culture took the rapid turn to abandon most cultural values and the sexual revolution kicked in, I think we lost most of these things that helped guide us on how to behave, who informs who etc. So we are kind of on the spot where we sometimes know what is right or wrong but are uncertain how to put it in place.

I think if we simply become more active in shunning and getting rid of such clothing, the surrounding framework will slowly evolve in to place. It will certainly be a rough ride at the beginning. But eventually we will figure out a nice balance.

In some of these cultures I mention that I had the fortune of observing, usually the parents play a major role in building the personal sensitivity and modesty in the children. By the time they are older, they usually know how to dress and they pass it down to their children etc. The elderly in the society would be the ones who usually point out faults immediately in dress or new forms of dress and their insight is respected. Such frameworks didn’t come in to place over night but only over time as they worked toward the common goal of making sure to shun inappropriate clothing and other things. It would be impossible for us to bring such a framework in to play at once over night because most of the things like elderly respect are not even present in our societies anyway.

So as long as we keep our priorities direct for now and keep shunning and pointing out inappropriate form of dress whenever we can, I think we will be alright though it might certainly be rough at the beginning. As long as we do it with the good intent, although it might cause loss of friends and rough times, I think its worth it. I guess its the price we have to pay for the actions of our past generations that rejected all our cultural values without much consideration.

 

[severus68]

So if I understand you correctly, it is ok for a woman to tempt a man? I find this inconsistent with teachings of the church because temptation here is present regardless of whether the man who observes her has a high degree of self control or not.

The highly self-controlled man might not given in to the temptation but the temptation is present nevertheless and far as Theology is concerned, the woman would be sinning.

By your reasoning, it was not evil of the Devil to tempt Christ or even us human beings because if we are self-controlled, temptation doesn’t matter. But as we saw in the Garden of Eden, God didn’t just blame the human beings but also cursed the Devil too.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I said ‘look attractive’. If someone seduces another (not a spouse) or plys a woman with alcohol to have sex, it is wrong. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive for yourself and if men find you attractive, that is not wrong either. If a man chhose to see the woman with lust, it is wholly his sin.

 

[OurBeloved]

Please do not put words in my mouth. I said ‘look attractive’. If someone seduces another (not a spouse) or plys a woman with alcohol to have sex, it is wrong. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive for yourself and if men find you attractive, that is not wrong either. If a man chhose to see the woman with lust, it is wholly his sin.

Relax. If you just meant attractive, that is fine for sure. I was just making sure you didn’t mean that the issue of temptation is irrelevant. By temptation, I didn’t mean alcohol either and I specifically meant dress. Anyway, it is a position that some tend to have and I did think you might be implying it as well.

As long as we agree that trying to look sexually attractive is a sin, we are in agreement.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

As long as we agree that trying to look sexually attractive is a sin, we are in agreement.

Sorry. Disagree. Badly.

1. Defining what looks ‘sexually attractive’ is an obscure folly.
2. Following up #1, what is ‘sexually attractive’ to some would just be ‘attractive’ to others.
3. In case you try to pull up the ‘induces lust’ card, do take note that your logic can be used against my fashion tastes as well. Just replace ‘sexually attractive’ with ‘manga-inspired cool’ and ‘induces lust’ with ‘induces wrath’ respectively.

 

[thewanderer]

Sorry. Disagree. Badly.

1. Defining what looks ‘sexually attractive’ is an obscure folly.
2. Following up #1, what is ‘sexually attractive’ to some would just be ‘attractive’ to others.
3. In case you try to pull up the ‘induces lust’ card, do take note that your logic can be used against my fashion tastes as well. Just replace ‘sexually attractive’ with ‘manga-inspired cool’ and ‘induces lust’ with ‘induces wrath’ respectively.

Just to be clear, do you have a problem with
a) saying that there are certain standards of dress that are acceptable for a given occasion
b) using the term ‘sexually attractive’ or ‘incites lust’ to describe clothing which is not acceptable
c) the ability to decide on a particular standard of dress due to the differing opinions existing on what constitutes modest attire?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Just to be clear, do you have a problem with
a) saying that there are certain standards of dress that are acceptable for a given occasion
b) using the term ‘sexually attractive’ or ‘incites lust’ to describe clothing which is not acceptable
c) the ability to decide on a particular standard of dress due to the differing opinions existing on what constitutes modest attire?

1. More of a problem with those who cling on those standards too tightly for reasonable sense.
2. Given the fickle nature of human visual tastes, yes. Absolutely.
3. Setting a standard for yourself is fine. It’s pompously making it (and yourself) the yardstick for the whole of mankind that’s both logically and morally repulsive.

 

[thewanderer]

1. More of a problem with those who cling on those standards too tightly for reasonable sense.
2. Given the fickle nature of human visual tastes, yes. Absolutely.
3. Setting a standard for yourself is fine. It’s pompously making it (and yourself) the yardstick for the whole of mankind that’s both logically and morally repulsive.

Ok, as far as I see it then, I don’t see a disagreement with ourbeloved with respect to 1 or 3. I haven’t yet seen anything in what she has said that implies that she clings to standards that are too restrictive or tries to hold a ‘too restrictive’ standard up for everone. After all, she did not seem to have any problem with me saying that different people have different views of what is modest and what is not and that some people hold views that are more restrictive than necessary. I assume you are not trying to prematurely judge ourbeloved as someone who falls into either category 1 or 3.

In other words, your objection to Our Beloved’s post is solely based on the use of ‘sexually attractive’ as a negative term for clothing. I agree that depending on what is meant by ‘sexually attractive’ it can sometimes be wrong to use it as a negative word for clothing, however, there also seems a use that is appropriate. Do you mind explaining your objection to it a little more? I am unclear as to what your problem with it is.

[EDIT: I assume that when you say you have a problem with those who hold to an idea of modesty that is too restrictive you do not mean that you think it is wrong for someone to hold themselves to such a standard? I assume that what you meant by this was rather that you have a problem with those who hold others to the same standards they hold themselves too? And so your problem with 1 is essentially just your problem with 3?]

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

In other words, your objection to Our Beloved’s post is solely based on the use of ‘sexually attractive’ as a negative term for clothing. I agree that depending on what is meant by ‘sexually attractive’ it can sometimes be wrong to use it as a negative word for clothing, however, there also seems a use that is appropriate. Do you mind explaining your objection to it a little more? I am unclear as to why exactly you have a problem with it?

Yes, I have issues with the use of the term in a negative context and for a number of reasons. You have the varying standards for what’s ‘sexually attractive’. There’s also my own personal experience with seeing costumes that can be deemed ‘sexually attractive’ even though one can actually appreciate them with a hormone filter on.

I assume that what you meant by this was rather that you have a problem with those who hold others to the same standards they hold themselves too? And so your problem with 1 is essentially just your problem with 3?

Yes to the first, no to the second. The two are connected but they’re also distinct. If a person must sincerely insist on forcing a standard on themselves that is essentially based on superficiality, fine. We all do it on some degree anyways. To force it on others on the other hand is crossing the line. I for one wouldn’t do it despite my own fashion preferences. The world would be more boring than it already is if everyone dressed too similarly. Insistence on variety is certainly one of fashion’s better perks.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes, I have issues with the use of the term in a negative context and for a number of reasons. You have the varying standards for what’s ‘sexually attractive’. There’s also my own personal experience with seeing costumes that can be deemed ‘sexually attractive’ even though one can actually appreciate them with a hormone filter on.

Yes to the first, no to the second. The two are connected but they’re also distinct. If a person must sincerely insist on forcing a standard on themselves that is essentially based on superficiality, fine. We all do it on some degree anyways. To force it on others on the other hand is crossing the line. I for one wouldn’t do it despite my own fashion preferences. The world would be more boring than it already is if everyone dressed too similarly. Insistence on variety is certainly one of fashion’s better perks.

I’m still not entirely clear on what your objection is. Sorry if I’m just being dense.

I guess what I’m trying to understand is if its

1. the concept of ‘sexually attractive’ clothing that you have a problem with or
2. its simply the particular clothing that some people apply it to. (in which case it would fall into the same category as the 3rd problem from up above, people attempting to impose a stricter standerd of modesty upon others than is necessary)

 

[thewanderer]

Sorry, I posted before you edited your post… I seem to be getting into that habit

…

Yes to the first, no to the second. The two are connected but they’re also distinct. If a person must sincerely insist on forcing a standard on themselves that is essentially based on superficiality, fine. We all do it on some degree anyways. To force it on others on the other hand is crossing the line. I for one wouldn’t do it despite my own fashion preferences. The world would be more boring than it already is if everyone dressed too similarly. Insistence on variety is certainly one of fashion’s better perks.

I’m not really sure what distinction you are making here either… I’m not sure that I understand what problem you would have with those who hold themselves to a strict standard of modesty as long as they are not forcing it on anyone else…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I guess what I’m trying to understand is if its

1. the concept of ‘sexually attractive’ clothing that you have a problem with or
2. its simply the particular clothing that some people apply it to. (in which case it would fall into the same category as the 3rd problem from up above, people attempting to impose a stricter standerd of modesty upon others than is necessary)

Look it’s like this. The term ‘sexually attractive’ is as arbitrary as it gets. Plenty of people have different tastes and thus, they obviously have differing views on what’s sexually appealing. Be the reasons cultural, personal, or whatever, the fact is you can never nail down an absolute for it.

I’m not really sure what distinction you are making here either… I’m not sure that I understand what problem you would have with those who hold themselves to a strict standard of modesty as long as they are not forcing it on anyone else…

I have no problem. Unfortunately, the Modesty Police prefer to make themselves the grand enforcers of their aesthetic preferences just as much as the Fashion Police.