Modesty in Dress

[rayne89]

Mike O:

But if it is 95 degree outside and one goes for a long distance run, is it truly sinful to NOT wear long pants and a shirt below the elbows?

Unless you’re a considerably over weight pale skinned middle aged man. But for a whole different reason. Ok that wasn’t nice.

Running in long pants and a jersey in 95 degree weather is a danger to your health. Anyone running in 95 degree weather even in shorts and a T is going to be sweating like a pig I wouldn’t worry about causing scandal.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

pbm:

I could not find a forum or a forum catagory for this topic of
SSPX in Schism. I could not find a way to create a new forum
topic. So I am force to reply here. If the moderator wants to
create a new forum topic called, Tradition, and a subtopic called
SSPX, I will post there. Actually, I think it should be added.

Here is my response:

SSPX is NOT in Schism. Here is the proof. One does not
need to ask the pope’s opinion. One can actually judge by
the actions of the SSPX group and the definition of schism.

What is schism?

Schism is NOT recognizing the pope as the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholic Church.

An act of disobedience alone does NOT constitute schism.

1. SSPX does recognize the pope.
2. Pope John Paul II was NOT speaking infallibly on this matter.

In the formal definition of schism, disobedience does not equal a schismatic act. The two are often confused.

Thererfore, Pope John Paul II’s statement is NOT correct.
The pope was NOT speaking infallibly. We do not have to believe the pope on this matter. If the pope says the world is flat, we do not have to believe him.

One needs to understand the issue of when the pope is speaking infallibly and when he is not. One also needs to understand the meaning of schism.

Michael Davies wrote a book about this subject and gives a great
defense of SSPX. Also the book, “Schism or Not” is a good one.

The pope is not a dictator, sorry. When he makes an error and
it can be proved to be an error, we do not have to believe him.

How can the pope be more accepting of the Jews and Muslims than SSPX? The Jews do not recognize the pope and neither
do the Muslims.

It makes the pope look kind of unbelieveable.

Many modern Catholics do not understand the concept,
Faith is Greater than Obedience, which seems to apply here.

Here you go, pbm.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1234742#post1234742

 

[Ana]

vluvski:

I think people need to make a personal decision on modesty rather than having the church implement more rules.

Looking great in modest clothes is the best thing we can do to promote modesty.

Absolutely, there CAN be modesty without scrupulosity!

 

[trumpet152]

tjmiller:

Even in a “perfect world”, without original sin or actual personal sin or lustful men, I have a hard time believing that Our Lady would ever wear a bikini…

In a perfect world, we would be naked without shame.

 

[mlchance]

love4mary:

To a teen age girl?,.,she most likely will just see an “old” man with hair and a “spare tire”. :bigyikes:

Once one has a flat, that spare tire comes in handy.

I think there’s a double entrendre in there somewhere.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Fidelis]

SeekerJen:

I’m about convinced that men will stare regardless.

SOME men (maybe, sad to say, even MOST men) will, because they have an ingrained HABIT of checking out any attractive female that comes into their view. That is a spirtual failure and lack of virtue on THEIR part. Unfortunately, the popular culture encourages people to act like dogs with impunity.

Still, it is our responsibility as Christians to not be an occasion of sin for others, including those who are TRYING to guard their eyes. Dressing modestly and teaching our daughters to do the same helps. Encouraging men and teaching our sons to guard their eyes helps. Exposed butt cracks, painted on jeans/sweaters, and cleavage do not help.

 

[benkim]

I wonder what the author of that booklet would say about guys wearing skinny jeans. What do you guys think?

 

[RachelsAlumni]

I’m about convinced that men will stare regardless.

I had a grad school interview this morning, which IMO required a suit. My one suit is a tailored jacket/skirt combo, which is not anywhere near tight-fitting, and is actually a bit large, as I was a little heavier when I bought it. The skirt is below the knee, and I wore said suit with a high-necked shell, nylons, and low-heeled shoes. Fine, right? Sounds fine to me.

As soon as I got out of the car and started walking up to the building, I had men checking out my legs (and yes, they were being rather obvious about it). Mind you, I am very short, and the skirt was at least an inch below the knee, so there wasn’t a huge expanse of visible leg. However, they were still looking. So I have now come to the conclusion that in church, I should never wear a skirt above the ankle lest I cause scandal.

I had a similar experience. I went to a Lenten retreat at a monastery where there were a number of seminarians roaming about. I was wearing a very nice, modest suit with a skirt below my knees. I was sitting at a table outside and I noticed that as each seminarian passed by he glanced at my legs. It occured to me that wearing a skirt when other women were wearing pants has now become scandalous.

I used to wear only dresses and skirts to church and religious events. Now I tend to wear either floor length skirts or pants.

My favorite book on dressing modestly is “Modestly Yours” by Camille De Blasi. Here’s a quote from the book/pamphlet:

Modestly is not walking around in complete silence, wrapped up in a burlap sack, a big floppy hat, and four layers of sweaters so that no one can see there’s a human girl underneath. That’s not modesty. That’s overkill. And if you grew up in the New Mexican desert like I did, it’s practically suicide. St. Teresa of Avila knew this. She once wrote to one of the nuns in her convent: “With regard to the woolen tunic that you desire to wear throughout the summer, it is folly. Do me the favor of leaving it off.”

Modesty is a virtue that I use to remind myself and other people of how valuable and dignified and important and lovely I am. Modesty means showing in my words, thoughts, and actions, and in the way I look and dress, that the most important thing about myself is LOVE. It’s not my body. It’s not my legs, or my skin, or my hair (thank goodness). The most important thing about me is not even my athletic ability, my intellectual skills, or my ability to speak in public. The most important thing about me is LOVE.

Modesty means avoiding everything that causes people to forget that LOVE is the most important thing about me. It means my helping you to know that the most important about you, is LOVE, too.

 

[Colmcille]

I had a similar experience. I went to a Lenten retreat at a monastery where there were a number of seminarians roaming about. I was wearing a very nice, modest suit with a skirt below my knees. I was sitting at a table outside and I noticed that as each seminarian passed by he glanced at my legs. It occured to me that wearing a skirt when other women were wearing pants has now become scandalous.

I used to wear only dresses and skirts to church and religious events. Now I tend to wear either floor length skirts or pants.

My favorite book on dressing modestly is “Modestly Yours” by Camille De Blasi. Here’s a quote from the book/pamphlet:

One of my favorite quotes is “like lightning before the storm, so shines modesty in the eyes of men.” To me that means men (honorable, well meaning men) place a high value on modesty. “Get your mind out of the gutter!” could have been whispered to the seminarians. Don’t give up on efforts toward excellence in modesty matters, The dividends are worth it.

 

[chevalier]

Ultimately it is the responsibility of men to hold back any impure thoughts they have about women. In a perfect world women could wear what ever they want. However we don’t live in a perfect world, most healthy men will have these thoughts pop into their minds, after all were still human and as we know these thoughts can lead us into sin.

So yes, if possible women should keep themselves modest, even if it is just out of courtesy for us men.

Objection, to an extent. In a perfect world everyone could go naked and there’d be no lust. However, in a perfect world there’d be no clothes drawing attention to the sexual appeal of certain emphasises body parts. There’d also be no strategic revealing of skin. Women would not try to elicit the wrong kind of attention. The arguments you present don’t work for clothes which carry some specific purpose of attracting sexual attention. Not eliciting that kind of attention is not a matter of mere courtesy.

I asked my husband why sleeveless shirts were immodest. I was surprised by his answer. He said that the more skin that showed was a turn on. Of course, tight clothing would fall under this category.

There is something in that, now that you say, but I think some males perhaps connect the percentage of body area shown with proximity to nakedness. At some point there is the “she’s wearing so little” factor. It simply starts appearing rather skimpy at some point, which is not really a good thing. People are able to see skimpy as unprofessional (too frivolous, too unserious), but have a harder time connecting it with a possible moral objection. However, I’m not saying that sleeveless dresses automatically fall under skimpy and frivolous. I’ve even seen one that looks rather austere.

I wonder what the author of that booklet would say about guys wearing skinny jeans. What do you guys think?

Wasn’t it actually covered?

One of my favorite quotes is “like lightning before the storm, so shines modesty in the eyes of men.” To me that means men (honorable, well meaning men) place a high value on modesty.

Ask pretty much any man which kind of dress would make him want to marry a woman.

 

[Colmcille]

Not to be too picky, but to coexist peaceably and in a civilized manner, I can’t imagine a man wanting to marry all the nice, modest and beautiful feminine persons in sight… But, we all do have to get along, interact and work as a team for the common welfare. Distractions of erotic nature are legally frorbidden to some degree. It doesn’t help to have songs played on the radio such as, “I like my women just a little on the trashy side.”. Guard your eyes, heart, mind and soul!

 

[chevalier]

Not to be too picky, but to coexist peaceably and in a civilized manner, I can’t imagine a man wanting to marry all the nice, modest and beautiful feminine persons in sight… But, we all do have to get along, interact and work as a team for the common welfare. Distractions of erotic nature are legally frorbidden to some degree. It doesn’t help to have songs played on the radio such as, “I like my women just a little on the trashy side.”. Guard your eyes, heart, mind and soul!

I doubt those men would like to marry their women, “just a little on the trashy side.”

As for Catholic men… If you’ve been to church and looked around, you don’t want anything else. Seriously. Well, sooner or later. It takes time sometimes.

 

[samoht]

I want to be clear, when I said modesty was important, I meant for men and women. Men should not present themselves shirtless before any woman, unless it’s their wives and mothers.

I feel that is unrealistic. When I work outside in the blazing sun and it is 85 or 90 degrees I wear shorts and no shirt. That is not immodest, it is just practicle.

And what about when men go swimming? Should they wear a T-shirt or a full body covering as they did when my mother and dad had to do in the 1920’s? Common sense is what it is all about. Do not prance around to show off your body be it man or woman. One can be modest but sensibly modest. We need common sense here folks, that is all that is needed and you will not get into trouble.

 

[mdr]

I personally try to observe the rule of wearing a long skirt and to wear tops with high necklines, and that cover my elbows.

I need to try and get some more tops that aren’t hot in the summer, but yet have high necklines and cover my elbows.

Personally, in the SE Louisiana heat and humidity, I favor loose-fitting camp shirts and walking shorts. I tend to button up all except the very top; I haven’t been able to go lower since I was about 12, because I don’t like showing cleavage. Shorts tend to be close to knee-length.

To find summer-friendly tops that cover more, if you have any Orthodox or Chassidic Jews in your neighborhood or workplace, they can tell you where they shop. Their standard is, basically, skirts or jumpers that cover the knees (usually midcalf to be sure they stay covered), sleeves that cover the elbows (3/4 sleeves are popular in summer), no clinging or form-fitting clothes, and necklines that come up to or above the collarbone. Maybe you can Google with the term “frum” (which means “observant” in Yiddish, I believe) clothing. Our Chassidic neighbor dresses very modestly (she even covers her hair) and yet with flair; she is anything but frumpy.

I’m sure you’ll be able find clothes that suit your standards; I know they’re out there.

Peace-
-mdr

 

[mdr]

Men with no shirts on?,.,I never give them a second glance.

I am a mature adult woman, seen one chest ya seen them all kinda mentality.

To a teen age girl?,.,she most likely will just see an “old” man with hair and a “spare tire”. :bigyikes:

I agree about never a 2nd glance. I have 5 older brothers, and we all did AAU swimming year-round while I was growing up; I didn’t quit till I turned 16. I was surrounded by bare chests and tiny Speedos all the time. Never gave it a thought - guess my own youth kept me innocent, and by the time I was old enough to think about boys, I was completely inured. The bare flesh had no appeal at all. They look so much better dressed up, anyway, especially in a tux or morning suit! Hubba hubba!

These days, unless it’s hubby around the house on a summer afternoon, my reaction is either total oblivion or wishing they’d cover up already.

Peace-
-mdr

 

[mdr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana
I’ll have to warn my daughter of the erotic effect of “elbows” on men.

Wasn’t there a character in The Mikado who boasted that her left elbow was considered so beautiful that men came from miles away just to admire her?

Peace-
-mdr

 

[strngrnrth]

There are a lot of threads about this and they all end up talking over each other’s heads.
Everyone is for modesty around here. Some want to temper it with compassion toward women as well.
I believe most people most of the time are dressing far too immodestly. But when freedom of movement, safety and health are at stake, those things* come first.* That is because they are life-and-death issues and that makes them good opportunities to develop compassion.
A man who can’t control his temptations to lust unless others are physicaly endangering themselves, is a man with dangerous lust issues, who needs to discipline himself before someone gets hurt. We all struggle. I wish God’s grace and great success to their efforts to learn more self-control. I won’t wear a thong and a stretch minidress with a cutaway midriff and a legend like “Hot stuff” because that would be pointless and demeaning to all, especially me. But I will not wear a prairie dress all the way to the ER every day either. I actually do already come near life-threatening levels of heat exhaustion routinely in the summer every year, wearing normal summer clothes. I risk my life for my own dignity by refusing to wear, say, a tube top and high-cut running shorts around town and pour water over my head all day as some do. Someone who asks me to risk my safety on the job (if I still did hazardous work), in the sun, working out or walking home, more than I already do, is being unreasonable.
Where I live, for about seven or eight generations now, the custom has been for less clothing than easterners wear, because we are active. Some have little choice.
I believe that if I wear clothes that meet my own intuitive sense of “feeling dressed”, I am fully dressed, and if I roll something up suddenly, that’s my instinctive way of living longer. I will roll it down again when I feel better. Anyone who can’t help being turned on by the sight of a lady sick from the heat is very strange to me.

 

[chevalier]

Strngrnrth, I perfectly agree with you. Men should never blame women for their own problems with self-control. Men are not pigs who will drool by default, either.

However, I would like to add that sometimes responsibility is pushed on the beholder without a good reason. Bottom lines are that it’s not fine to objectify people we look at and it’s not fine to tempt those who look at us. In between the two extremes, some common sense would really help, but common sense is not quite so common.

 

[AirLiner]

seeing as I am quite a nostalgic person and would enjoy dressing in vintage clothing as is demonstrated by the people here,thefedoralounge.com i actually found the pamphlet okay. It is too strict in some aspects but it does make some valid points. Ive noted how some people on here have said that the only problem with nudity is impure thoughts and that people should be able to control their mind. However this argument is similar to the one some people use to justify nudism. Todays clothes seem to test the limits of modesty. Look what happened to Europe, public nudity seems to be everywhere. There is such thing as too much clothing on you, but there is also such thing as too little clothing and people today seem to be care less and less as to what is too little.

 

[StarPaintedBlue]

I was absolutely flabbergasted when I saw a girl who couldn’t have been a day over 14 wearing shorts so short that they looked more like glorified underwear and a tube top. The worst part? Her MOTHER was standing right next to her! Heck, I’m 26 years old and I very rarely wear shorts in public, and never tube tops! What are parents like that THINKING? I’m working on a rough draft of a letter to the editor of my local paper about this very issue.

Personally, except for a brief stint around 13-14, I’ve always been a modest dresser. I will wear tank tops, but they must be conservatively cut, not showing cleavage or excess skin. I will wear shorts around the house, but I very rarely wear them in public. I believe in modesty as a virtue, and I also believe that I have the personality and intelligence to impress a man…I don’t have to use my body as bait. I think alot of girls who dress immodesty do so because of a self esteem issue. They’re taught that sexuality is worth, they aren’t taught that they’re awesome people who deserve a loving, respectful husband instead of casual sex. Why don’t we teach our girls the virtue of intelligence, talent, poise, grace, compassion, faith, etc. as being more important then showing skin?

Oh…and I’m also making the switch to being skirted. I just have to get my sewing skills up to snuff again so I can make some of my own stuff. God made me a woman for a reason and I want to celebrate it by dressing like one.