Modesty in Sermons

[twf]

I was in the city recently, and was really surprised by the number of men aged about 20-30 years old wearing tight skinny trouser pants with their dress shirts and ties. So yeah, it’s out there.

And may I add, it’s not a good look, lol! Add a man bun, and it is beyond bad.

Ah yes…hipsters.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was in the city recently, and was really surprised by the number of men aged about 20-30 years old wearing tight skinny trouser pants with their dress shirts and ties. So yeah, it’s out there.

And may I add, it’s not a good look, lol! Add a man bun, and it is beyond bad.

I hope I’m not offending anyone in the present company, but I am going to hope out loud here that fashion awareness soon recognizes that most versions of “color not found in nature” hairstyles are eye-catching but not in a good way. I’ve seen some I had to admit were not my cup of tea but also not out-and-out violations of the rules of aesthetics. Those are the vast minority.

Even with those, and to the thread topic: eye-catching is something to be approached with some caution, if you want to avoid immodesty in the sense of cultivating an everybody-look-at-me vanity. As Thomas Merton put it: “The eccentric man is not poor in spirit.” The Amish are perhaps far too strict (although they aren’t more strict than some religious orders), but they do demonstrate some understanding concerning how individualism is not exactly a Christian virtue.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve noticed my baggy jeans have become my skinny jeans…

Pssst…that never happens. No, there are bodies that can get into skinny jeans and bodies that cannot, LOL!

Jeans that would have been easier to apply with a paintbrush are not modest.

 

[Elena321]

I’ve noticed my baggy jeans have become my skinny jeans…
wouldn’t wear either to Mass though.

LOL

 

[SusanneT]

I think priests are afraid they may offend people if the topics of modesty in dress and other things is discussed. In my opinion, the truly offended will be those who are intentionally not practicing modesty in some way not those who already are or those who claim ignorance in some way.

I completely agree on both counts.

I think there is a fear of discussing modesty, because it is seen (wrongly) as a purely female issue and any discussion of dress is a red rag to the feminist lobby.

 

[EasterJoy]

I completely agree on both counts.

I think there is a fear of discussing modesty, because it is seen (wrongly) as a purely female issue and any discussion of dress is a red rag to the feminist lobby.

Modesty in the broader sense also flies in the face of the value an individualistic outlook puts on “expressing yourself.”

Being unique is not a virtue. It is a morally neutral fact. You are unlike anyone else and singularly precious in the eyes of God whether or not you go out of your way to show it. When we go out of our way to be noticeable, we are literally choosing a self-centered focus, even if it is not meant in a selfish way.

A homilist who asks people to think a lot less about looks and a lot less about how people think of them and look at them and to spend a lot more time being self-forgetful is going to get push-back, too. Trying to look “sexy” is not just problematic with regards to purity. It is a problem with regards to vanity, as well. (Does anyone ever stop to think why on earth it is desirable to have anyone but one’s spouse have the thought of sex even cross their minds when they look at them? Do you say your spouse wants other men or women to envy him or her? WHY? Why would a Christian want to arouse envy in others?)

The self-esteem believers will not like that suggestion!

 

[Elena321]

…Does anyone ever stop to think why on earth it is desirable to have anyone but one’s spouse have the thought of sex even cross their minds when they look at them? Do you say your spouse wants other men or women to envy him or her? WHY? Why would a Christian want to arouse envy in others?)

And the end result is also you being viewed as an object if you had a husband who wanted other men to be envious.
Like how -dare I say- Donald Trump views Melania Trump.
Surely women’s identity and worth is much more than being arm candy/physical appearance.

 

[Lea101]

q

A homilist who asks people to think a lot less about looks and a lot less about how people think of them and look at them and to spend a lot more time being self-forgetful is going to get push-back, too. Trying to look “sexy” is not just problematic with regards to purity. It is a problem with regards to vanity, as well. (Does anyone ever stop to think why on earth it is desirable to have anyone but one’s spouse have the thought of sex even cross their minds when they look at them? Do you say your spouse wants other men or women to envy him or her? WHY? Why would a Christian want to arouse envy in others?)

The self-esteem believers will not like that suggestion!

Because being sexy is a good thing to many (I admit, I don’t mind having guys think I’m sexy. Heck, I’ll even take “you have nice fingernails”). A plain jane will not get attention if she wears a modest dress. But show some cleavage and suddenly she is hot. And then Jane gets the attention and she feels attractive, making her confident (although not the type she really wants)

Or Jane enjoys the ‘power’ she gets, since that might be the only way she will ever have it. Most women that defend immodesty will say stuff like “I do it to feel good” but they don’t really dig deeper after that.

Or some just don’t care. They want to be able to wear what they want without being viewed as a piece of meat. Which is a popular comeback for modesty discussions

 

[MissRose73]

I completely agree on both counts.

I think there is a fear of discussing modesty, because it is seen (wrongly) as a purely female issue and any discussion of dress is a red rag to the feminist lobby.

I remember a priest on EWTN had a homily years ago about modesty and dress for Mass, and he mentioned BOTH genders not placing the burden squarely on women only. I don’t see men wearing skinny jeans to Mass where I live and honestly those types of jeans don’t really look good on most anyone male and female. There are some good homilies by mainly traditional/TLM priests that cover various aspects of modesty and dress on youtube & other sources too. Even my 1st Communion missal in a segment from 30 years ago+ where it broke down parts of the Mass said we should come to Mass well dressed.

 

[dangerousdyls]

I was just listening to a Catholic Answers podcast with Jason Evert, he talks about this subject directly. He says priests “must” speak about this.

He’s a great speaker on this. I’d provide a link, but not finding it…the episode was on Catholic Answers Live on 2/10/17 #7884 if anyone wants to check it out.

btw, thanks everyone for their thoughts

 

[dangerousdyls]

catholic.com/audio/cal/7884

 

[kozlosap]

catholicmodesty.com/PadrePio.html

St Padre Pio was also a Priest. He died in 1968. St Padre Pio had a lot to say on modesty of dress for both genders.

Quote from one of Padre Pio’s letters: "There are, moreover, three virtues which perfect the devout person with regard to control of his own senses. These are: modesty, continence and chastity. By the virtue of modesty the devout person governs all his exterior acts. With good reason, then, does St. Paul recommend this virtue to all and declare how necessary it is and as if this were not enough he considers that this virtue should be obvious to all. By continence the soul exercises restraint over all the senses: sight, touch, taste, smell and hearing. By chastity, a virtue which ennobles our nature and makes it similar to that of the Angels, we suppress our sensuality and detach it from forbidden pleasures.

This is the magnificent picture of Christian perfection. Happy the one who possesses all these fine virtues, all of them fruits of the Holy Spirit who dwells within him. Such a soul has nothing to fear and will shine in the world as the sun in the heavens."

"Padre Pio wouldn’t tolerate low-necked dresses or short, tight skirts, and he forbade his spiritual daughters to wear transparent stockings. Each year his severity increased. He stubbornly dismissed them from his confessional, even before they set foot inside, if he judged them to be improperly dressed. On some mornings he drove away one after another, until he ended up hearing very few confessions. His brothers observed these drastic purges with a certain uneasiness and decided to fasten a sign on the church door; "

“By Padre Pio’s explicit wish, women must enter the confessional wearing skirts AT LEAST 8 INCHES BELOW THE KNEE. IT IS FORBIDDEN TO BORROW LONGER DRESSES IN CHURCH AND TO WEAR THEM TO CONFESSION”

And for men:
The Church is the house of God.
It is forbidden for men to enter with bare arms or in shorts. It is forbidden for women to enter in trousers, without a veil on their head, in short clothing, low necklines, sleeveless or immodest dresses."

( 8 inches below the knee would be ankle length for many☺. Women had started borrowing dresses for confession. Padre Pio always knew. )

Padre Pio’s attitude towards women has bugged me for years. Does anyone here really think that Our Lord would have turned away anyone for the manner in which they were dressed? Now that it has been discovered that Pio most likely had some mental illness, it makes a little more sense.

 

[LightBound]

Padre Pio’s attitude towards women has bugged me for years. Does anyone here really think that Our Lord would have turned away anyone for the manner in which they were dressed? Now that it has been discovered that Pio most likely had some mental illness, it makes a little more sense.

I don’t put much stock into what some biographers of St Pio said, since his beloved spiritual daughter, Servant of God Maria Esperanza (the one he described to his followers as - “When I leave, she will be your consolation.”) is shown in numerous pictures wearing ladies pants.

 

[Sarcelle]

And the end result is also you being viewed as an object if you had a husband who wanted other men to be envious.
Like how -dare I say- Donald Trump views Melania Trump.
Surely women’s identity and worth is much more than being arm candy/physical appearance.

Women are often characterized by how attractive they are.

Even in Christianity, the ideal Christian woman is generally portrayed as a housewife and mother. Well to be a wife in the first place, one must attract a man and what motivates a man to approach a woman in the first place? Physical beauty.

So physical beauty may not be the only thing men are looking for, but it is the hook by which women can get husbands.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t put much stock into what some biographers of St Pio said, since his beloved spiritual daughter, Servant of God Maria Esperanza (the one he described to his followers as - “When I leave, she will be your consolation.”) is shown in numerous pictures wearing ladies pants.

So are these biographers biased towards St Pio, or against? They sure aren’t doing him any favors of they are biased towards him.

 

[LightBound]

So are these biographers biased towards St Pio, or against? They sure aren’t doing him any favors of they are biased towards him.

I think they are using something he may have said at one time (and likely pulled it out of context) to further their own agenda and personal preferences for modesty. I say, the proof is in the pudding, and if he was that against women in pants or felt they needed to wear long sleeves and floor length skirts, surely his beloved spiritual daughter would have followed his wishes…both when he was alive and after he died. Also, you are correct that sites that insist on posting this kind of thing do St Pio no favors in how they are portraying him.

 

[Memaw]

Honestly, men’s clothes are getting tighter and tighter and tighter. It is not always women who have a problem with this.

Modesty is for EVERYONE!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

If you mean skinny jeans, those have got to be a lot better than the huge, baggy, below-the-butt and show-your-underwear variety.

Two wrongs don’t make a right!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Because being sexy is a good thing to many (I admit, I don’t mind having guys think I’m sexy. Heck, I’ll even take “you have nice fingernails”). A plain jane will not get attention if she wears a modest dress. But show some cleavage and suddenly she is hot. And then Jane gets the attention and she feels attractive, making her confident (although not the type she really wants)

Or Jane enjoys the ‘power’ she gets, since that might be the only way she will ever have it. Most women that defend immodesty will say stuff like “I do it to feel good” but they don’t really dig deeper after that.

Or some just don’t care. They want to be able to wear what they want without being viewed as a piece of meat. Which is a popular comeback for modesty discussions

If they don’t want to be seen as a “piece of meat,” then why throw the “meat” out there??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

I think they are using something he may have said at one time (and likely pulled it out of context) to further their own agenda and personal preferences for modesty. I say, the proof is in the pudding, and if he was that against women in pants or felt they needed to wear long sleeves and floor length skirts, surely his beloved spiritual daughter would have followed his wishes…both when he was alive and after he died. Also, you are correct that sites that insist on posting this kind of thing do St Pio no favors in how they are portraying him.

And they do themselves NO favors either!! He IS a Canonized Saint .
God Bless, Memaw