Modesty is a Virtue

[mamabear7]

“it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear men’s clothes” --St. Thomas, Summa Theologica II-II, q. 169, a. 2, ad 3 (that leaves us skirts and dresses)

“Women who satisfy their vanity in their dress can never put on the life of Jesus Christ; moreover they even lose the ornaments of their soul as soon as this idol enters into their heart.” -St. Padre Pio

“Man is lost by woman, he is saved by woman; this one loses man by the display of vanity, this other will save him by virtue of her modesty. The moral world oscillates between Eve and Mary. As long as modesty is not preached by everyone as it is here, society will not recover.”

“In like manner I wish women to be decently dressed, adorning themselves with modesty and dignity, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but with good works, such as become women professing Godliness.” (1 Tim. 2:9-10)

“O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making for yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians.” -Pope Pius XII

“How beautiful then is modesty and what a gem among virtues it is.” (St. Bernard, Confessor and Doctor of the Church)

“Do not love the world, or the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life; which is not from the Father, but from the world. And the world with its lust is passing away but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 St. John 2:15, 17)

“Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions. Our Lord is always the same.” And she also revealed to Jacinta that “the sins that lead most souls to hell are the sins of the flesh.” -Our Lady of Fatima

“A woman shall not be clothed with man’s apparel, neither shall a man use woman’s apparel; for he that doeth these things is abominable before God.” (Deut.22:5)

St. John Chrysostom (347-407), the illustrious Bishop of Constantinople and one of the 32 doctors of the Church, had this to say about women who dress immodestly: “You carry your snare everywhere and spread your net in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. And much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me whom does this world condemn? Whom do the judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You are more criminal than those who poison the body. You have given the death-dealing drink. You murder not the body but the soul, and it is not to enemies do you do this nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury. But you do it out of foolish vanity and pride.”

To see pictures of Mary and see how modestly she dressed when appearing to people, click here:
olrl.org/virtues/modesty.shtml

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

mamabear7:

…(that leaves us skirts and dresses)…

Not necessarily. Women’s clothing can include many kinds of clothing other than skirts and dresses, just as men’s clothing can include unbifurcated garments that are functionally equivalent to skirts or dresses (kilts, robes, cassocks, etc.)

 

[mpav]

One of the “crimes” for which Joan of Arc was executed was wearing men’s clothing. She was later canonized.

 

[tuopaolo]

It is sinful for a woman to wear masculine clothes on purpose or without a good reason. St Joan of Arc had good reasons. In fact the corrupt authorities wouldn’t provide her with feminine clothes or allow her to dress in them without inappropriateness.

The quotes do not mean that there are never circumstances in which it is not a sin. Obviously if masculine clothes are the only ones you have and you can’t afford to buy replacements, then it’s not a sin. Or if you need to wear masculine clothes for the purposes of fighting a war, it’s not a sin.

St Thomas gave the best and strongest reading to his opponents arguments and then proceeded to refute them. It would only be common courtesy to accord him the same respect instead of giving his statements an artificially strict interpretation. If I were to say, “Walking outside naked is a sin” … that obviously does not mean that if you are in the shower naked and you hear the fire alarm and then see lots of smoke and flames that it would be a sin to rush out as fast as possible, even if you are naked. Dialogue means to understand what your opponent is coming from as best as possible and then discuss with him the differences. It doesn’t mean trying to tear down what your opponent says using any and all means necessary a la American politics.

 

[netmilsmom]

I may be wrong, I wear dresses, but there are many reasons why a lady would wear something other than a skirt to Holy Mass.

Live through a MI winter and see how cold it would be to have leg braces in a skirt.

I would rather focus on a sweater that just reaches a skirt (exposing her back everytime she leans over) than a lady wearing pants. Some outfits with pants are much more modest. Coming in pink or lavender, they are surely not men’s clothing.

Modesty is an issue which should be addressed with some people, male and female.

 

[kristacecilia]

Thanks for the quotes… I was looking for the one from Deut the other day and couldn’t find it.

This is something I have thought a lot about. Sometimes I go a bit gung-ho and decide I am only going to wear skirts and dresses, but in reality I doubt I will ever be able to. There are not that many skirts and dresses out there that I find a) modest and b) flattering. I do sew some of my own, though. I just finished a maternity dress.

I don’t know if I honestly think women cannot wear modest jeans a slacks. To Mass, I always wear a skirt or dress. Around the house and to town, however, I wear jeans, comfy pants, and slack-type pants. I aim to dress in tasteful, flattering clothes that are not immodest in anyway.

I will be re-reading over the quotes… this is something I still pray about. I just don’t know that, in our era, modest slacks and jeans are considered man’s clothes.

 

[puzzleannie]

“it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear men’s clothes” --St. Thomas, Summa Theologica II-II, q. 169, a. 2, ad 3 (that leaves us skirts and dresses)

Corinne

no, it leaves us with whatever robes or garments were worn in the middle ages, when Thomas wrote, or in the first century, when Paul wrote the same thing. They did not have skirts and dresses (or halter tops, low rider jeans, crop tops, bikinis). What they did have were a lot of immodest fashions for both men and women that scandalized social critics of their day.

 

[netmilsmom]

kristacecilia:

Thanks for the quotes… I was looking for the one from Deut the other day and couldn’t find it.

This is something I have thought a lot about. Sometimes I go a bit gung-ho and decide I am only going to wear skirts and dresses, but in reality I doubt I will ever be able to. There are not that many skirts and dresses out there that I find a) modest and b) flattering. I do sew some of my own, though. I just finished a maternity dress.

I don’t know if I honestly think women cannot wear modest jeans a slacks. To Mass, I always wear a skirt or dress. Around the house and to town, however, I wear jeans, comfy pants, and slack-type pants. I aim to dress in tasteful, flattering clothes that are not immodest in anyway.

I will be re-reading over the quotes… this is something I still pray about. I just don’t know that, in our era, modest slacks and jeans are considered man’s clothes.

Congrats on your new angel! Our great-nephew was born six hours before my hubby’s birthday in Feb. He actually said, “Couldn’t she wait until Midnight?” Oh my!

I would have to say that I would prefer to see a lady in modest slacks than a mini-skirt.
Especially after a certain age! Ladies should learn that over 40 means adding inches to the skirt too.
I cringe at the women who feel it’s okay to show tons of leg with the map of the rivers of the US in them. Yuck. Or arms waving in the wind.
Oh don’t get me started…

 

[mpav]

My point about Joan is that sometimes it is appropriate to wear masculaine clothing. Sorry if I failed to make myself clear, in my effort ot be brief.

 

[mamabear7]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I may be wrong, I wear dresses, but there are many reasons why a lady would wear something other than a skirt to Holy Mass.

Live through a MI winter and see how cold it would be to have leg braces in a skirt.

I would rather focus on a sweater that just reaches a skirt (exposing her back everytime she leans over) than a lady wearing pants. Some outfits with pants are much more modest. Coming in pink or lavender, they are surely not men’s clothing.

Modesty is an issue which should be addressed with some people, male and female.

A lady at my church gave me a great idea for staying warm in winter: wear pants under your skirt or dress. The winter cold is the reason why I didn’t switch to skirts last winter as my husband wanted me to. Now I don’t have any excuse!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[mamabear7]

puzzleannie:

no, it leaves us with whatever robes or garments were worn in the middle ages, when Thomas wrote, or in the first century, when Paul wrote the same thing. They did not have skirts and dresses (or halter tops, low rider jeans, crop tops, bikinis). What they did have were a lot of immodest fashions for both men and women that scandalized social critics of their day.

Cardinal Siri might disagree with you.
olrl.org/virtues/pants.shtml

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Prometheum_x]

Men’s clothes are clothes worn by men.

Women’s clothes are clothes worn by women.

I’ll leave it up to fashion-gurus to distinguish the difference.

---

Giving a broad interpretation to the statement that women shouldn’t wear men’s clothes leads to absurd conclusions. For example:

Women shouldn’t wear men’s clothes.
Men wear socks.​

Therefore, women shouldn’t wear socks.

Substitute any article of clothing into that and receive a similarly absurd conclusion.

 

[mamabear7]

Prometheum_x:

Men’s clothes are clothes worn by men.

Women’s clothes are clothes worn by women.

I’ll leave it up to fashion-gurus to distinguish the difference.

---

Giving a broad interpretation to the statement that women shouldn’t wear men’s clothes leads to absurd conclusions. For example:

Women shouldn’t wear men’s clothes.
Men wear socks.​

Therefore, women shouldn’t wear socks.

Substitute any article of clothing into that and receive a similarly absurd conclusion.

You don’t have to take it that far. I was talking about the men’s clothes that most of us actually see (I don’t look down at men’s socks), which is pants. They also wear ties, and I don’t know why a woman would want to wear a tie.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The question that always comes to my mind when this issue is raised is: how does one today determine what is men’s and women’s dress? On the one hand, it is perfectly normal at present for women to wear pants. Yet, we are also not too far removed from a time in which most all of our religious leaders warned us against adopting such a fashion as it was, at that time, exactly what all those quotations warned against, i.e. women dressing like men. So should one conclude that pants are acceptable because they are a staple of modern women’s fashion, or should one conclude that they are not acceptable because this is only a recent development in dress and is perhaps one that Catholic culture should never have accepted to begin with?

 

[netmilsmom]

mamabear7:

A lady at my church gave me a great idea for staying warm in winter: wear pants under your skirt or dress. The winter cold is the reason why I didn’t switch to skirts last winter as my husband wanted me to. Now I don’t have any excuse!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

Your husband wants you to wear skirts.
Many husbands don’t mind pants at all. Mine doesn’t.

I think it’s great that you are always in dresses, but it’s not required by the church. I know that many ladies will think about what you have written. I know I am much cooler and look better in a skirt in the summer. And in fact, I got skorts to my knees for those times I must be in public but wind or motion would show more than I would like.

I actually know a few Protestant Fundamentalist Moms in our HS GS troop who always wear skirts and cover their heads. Their daughters wear jumpers with shorts under.

 

[netmilsmom]

Andreas Hofer:

The question that always comes to my mind when this issue is raised is: how does one today determine what is men’s and women’s dress? On the one hand, it is perfectly normal at present for women to wear pants. Yet, we are also not too far removed from a time in which most all of our religious leaders warned us against adopting such a fashion as it was, at that time, exactly what all those quotations warned against, i.e. women dressing like men. So should one conclude that pants are acceptable because they are a staple of modern women’s fashion, or should one conclude that they are not acceptable because this is only a recent development in dress and is perhaps one that Catholic culture should never have accepted to begin with?

Doesn’t it come down to which way the buttons button?

 

[Prometheum_x]

mamabear7:

Cardinal Siri might disagree with you.
olrl.org/virtues/pants.shtml

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

That is an interesting opinion.

He first starts (section 1) by saying that wearing “trousers” may be an occasion of immodesty, depending on how they are fitted.

Then he goes on (section 2) to say that this is not the most damaging aspect. What is most damaging is the effects of trouser-wearing on a woman’s psychology, male-female relationships, and the relationship between a mother and her children.

What needs to be noted in this section is that he starts by referring to “men’s trousers”. In each of those three aspects, he points out the damage done, not so much by wearing clothing that is folded around each individual leg (pants) but by trying to be like men.

Thus, so long as “trousers” are seen by a culture as a specifically male pattern of dress, then for women, wearing them is symbolic of trying to be like men, and would in fact have those harmful consequences. However, if they are no longer seen as such, then the women who wear them are not necessarily trying to be like men anymore.

That is, unless “trousers” are an intrinsically male article of clothing. However, the Cardinal does not show how that is, nor have I ever seen that demonstrated any where else.

 

[Prometheum_x]

mamabear7:

You don’t have to take it that far. I was talking about the men’s clothes that most of us actually see (I don’t look down at men’s socks), which is pants. They also wear ties, and I don’t know why a woman would want to wear a tie.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

What about shoes? Or a generic t-shirt? I have seen many girls wear skirts and t-shirts.

 

[seagal]

So, to be modest a woman should wear the clothes that were considered modest back in the 1st century, but a man can wear anything he wants? I personally could do without seeing another belly bulging over a skimpy Speedo! Or for that matter those baggy pants that show off the wearer’s BVD’s

BTW, they didn’t wear suits and ties back then either.

 

[bear06]

“it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear men’s clothes” --St. Thomas, Summa Theologica II-II, q. 169, a. 2, ad 3 (that leaves us skirts and dresses)

“Women who satisfy their vanity in their dress can never put on the life of Jesus Christ; moreover they even lose the ornaments of their soul as soon as this idol enters into their heart.” -St. Padre Pio

“Man is lost by woman, he is saved by woman; this one loses man by the display of vanity, this other will save him by virtue of her modesty. The moral world oscillates between Eve and Mary. As long as modesty is not preached by everyone as it is here, society will not recover.”

“In like manner I wish women to be decently dressed, adorning themselves with modesty and dignity, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but with good works, such as become women professing Godliness.” (1 Tim. 2:9-10)

“O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making for yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians.” -Pope Pius XII

“How beautiful then is modesty and what a gem among virtues it is.” (St. Bernard, Confessor and Doctor of the Church)

“Do not love the world, or the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life; which is not from the Father, but from the world. And the world with its lust is passing away but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 St. John 2:15, 17)

“Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions. Our Lord is always the same.” And she also revealed to Jacinta that “the sins that lead most souls to hell are the sins of the flesh.” -Our Lady of Fatima

“A woman shall not be clothed with man’s apparel, neither shall a man use woman’s apparel; for he that doeth these things is abominable before God.” (Deut.22:5)

St. John Chrysostom (347-407), the illustrious Bishop of Constantinople and one of the 32 doctors of the Church, had this to say about women who dress immodestly: “You carry your snare everywhere and spread your net in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. And much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me whom does this world condemn? Whom do the judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You are more criminal than those who poison the body. You have given the death-dealing drink. You murder not the body but the soul, and it is not to enemies do you do this nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury. But you do it out of foolish vanity and pride.”

To see pictures of Mary and see how modestly she dressed when appearing to people, click here:
olrl.org/virtues/modesty.shtml

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

What fashion are you wearing from your hair on down? I’m just betting that something you are doing is breaking some modesty rule set at sometime during our Church’s history.

Yes, we once had an actual Canon on this. The code we are bound to today does not bind us to this discipline.