Modesty is a Virtue

  • Thread starter Thread starter mamabear7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Additionally, the original post had a link to a website on modesty, prefaced by the statement “To see pictures of Mary and see how modestly she dressed when appearing to people, click here:”

On that website, it was asked (in reference to the Blessed Virigin Mary, “Can you imagine her wearing slacks?” Well, no. . . but I can’t really imagine Jesus wearing slacks or jeans either!

It make sense that she would appear wearing what she does in her apparitions – that is probably a reflection of what she wore on this earth. It would be weird to see her wearing modern clothes – but no more strange than to have a vision of Jesus wearing a suit and tie!
 
40.png
Prometheum_x:
Additionally, the original post had a link to a website on modesty, prefaced by the statement “To see pictures of Mary and see how modestly she dressed when appearing to people, click here:”

On that website, it was asked (in reference to the Blessed Virigin Mary, “Can you imagine her wearing slacks?” Well, no. . . but I can’t really imagine Jesus wearing slacks or jeans either!

It make sense that she would appear wearing what she does in her apparitions – that is probably a reflection of what she wore on this earth. It would be weird to see her wearing modern clothes – but no more strange than to have a vision of Jesus wearing a suit and tie!
True. I wonder if some people would even recognize Jesus if He came to them in a way they didn’t expect. Maybe they would shut the door if He came to them in jeans and a t-shirt.
 
40.png
Prometheum_x:
It make sense that she would appear wearing what she does in her apparitions – that is probably a reflection of what she wore on this earth. It would be weird to see her wearing modern clothes – but no more strange than to have a vision of Jesus wearing a suit and tie!
When she appeared as Our Lady of La Salette, she wore modern clothes. She was dressed in the peasant garb of the region.
 
40.png
mercygate:
When she appeared as Our Lady of La Salette, she wore modern clothes. She was dressed in the peasant garb of the region.
Really! Very interesting. I didn’t know about that occasion. I was responding specifically to the pictures from that website that was posted.
 
Andreas Hofer:
So should one conclude that pants are acceptable because they are a staple of modern women’s fashion, or should one conclude that they are not acceptable because this is only a recent development in dress and is perhaps one that Catholic culture should never have accepted to begin with?
The problem with the “recent development in dress” argument, is that, to be applied consistently, it would have to exclude all clothing innovations since the time of Christ. Therefore, all people, men and women, should be wearing the sort of garments worn in Jesus’ time (with allowances made for weather – what did severe cold climate people wear in Jesus’ time?)

Somehow, I don’t see that happening. 🙂

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
 
40.png
CarolAnnSFO:
what did severe cold climate people wear in Jesus’ time?)

Somehow, I don’t see that happening. 🙂

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Silly girl! Jesus came to us in the Levant because he didn’t want to see those Inuit women wearing those scandalous caribou-skin trousers!
 
“it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear men’s clothes” --St. Thomas, Summa Theologica II-II, q. 169, a. 2, ad 3 (that leaves us skirts and dresses)
I just took a look at this in context. Everyone might want to do the same. I find it troublesome when people take quotes out of context when the context is important. newadvent.org/summa/316902.htm
 
40.png
CarolAnnSFO:
The problem with the “recent development in dress” argument, is that, to be applied consistently, it would have to exclude all clothing innovations since the time of Christ. Therefore, all people, men and women, should be wearing the sort of garments worn in Jesus’ time (with allowances made for weather – what did severe cold climate people wear in Jesus’ time?)

Somehow, I don’t see that happening. 🙂

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
The argument, if it could even be called such, is not so much in the “recent development” part of the clause but in the idea that the developments should possibly not have entered the Catholic culture to begin with. In other words, is it really wise to appropriate a development which occurred by way of persisting in immorality until this became the norm and thus no longer immoral?

That’s far less nuanced a question than I’d prefer, but I think it adresses my concern most simply. The problem is that I’m not so much worried about whether women wearing pants in modern culture is ACCEPTABLE so much as I wonder whether it is WISE, considering that so much modern cultural change has been driven by an agenda at odds with Catholic truth.
 
Andreas Hofer:
The argument, if it could even be called such, is not so much in the “recent development” part of the clause but in the idea that the developments should possibly not have entered the Catholic culture to begin with. In other words, is it really wise to appropriate a development which occurred by way of persisting in immorality until this became the norm and thus no longer immoral?
Actually, that could be said about clothing styles that have been around for a long time, too. The clothing we now think of as extremely modest was considered scandalous and improper by our grandmothers. The grandmothers’ clothing was probably thought of as immoral by their grandmothers. So where does one draw the line?

And how do we deal with climates and cultures where pants for women has long been the cultural norm?

Regardless of why women started wearing pants in this country, I’m not convinced that their doing so today has anything to do with immorality.

**Crazy Internet Junkies Society
**Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
 
40.png
CarolAnnSFO:
Actually, that could be said about clothing styles that have been around for a long time, too. The clothing we now think of as extremely modest was considered scandalous and improper by our grandmothers. The grandmothers’ clothing was probably thought of as immoral by their grandmothers. So where does one draw the line?

And how do we deal with climates and cultures where pants for women has long been the cultural norm?

Regardless of why women started wearing pants in this country, I’m not convinced that their doing so today has anything to do with immorality.
As far as I know, the dress/skirt was pretty firmly established female attire for at least a millenium before the 1960s. Previous controversial changes in fashion dealt with just how much of the body was exposed, not the actual garment to be worn. The main problem seen by Cardinal Siri was not whether pants revealed too much but how the adoption of male dress by women served to blur gender differences.

However, even simply on the level of one style progressively showing more or fitting more closely, I still don’t see any reason why Catholic notions of modesty should be subordinate to cultural norms. The Church develops with culture when those developments are consistent with the mission of the Church, but when the two conflict the Church is a shaper of culture. If standards of modesty have run away from the Church it may very well be time for the Church to reshape culture, no matter how slowly the divergence occurred.

As to your last paragraph, I addressed that in the part of my post not included in your quote, saying that I did not question the morality of pants so much as the wisdom of women wearing them. All things are lawful, but not all things build up.
 
40.png
Prometheum_x:
Men’s clothes are clothes worn by men.

Women’s clothes are clothes worn by women.
This is where you are going completely wrong 😃

Masculine clothes are those clothes which are fittingly worn by men

Feminine clothes are those clothes which are fittingly worn by women.
Substitute any article of clothing into that and receive a similarly absurd conclusion.
When you start by constructing a strawman, of course you will be left with absurd conclusions 🙂
 
Andreas Hofer:
The question that always comes to my mind when this issue is raised is: how does one today determine what is men’s and women’s dress?
They key thing is to realize that what is masculine clothing and feminine clothing is not an arbitrary thing nor something that is simply determined by the whims of which place and time you are in. What is masculine clothing is that clothing which is fitting for a man; feminine, that which is fitting for a woman – this means that which is objectively fitting for a man and woman respectively. When we speak of how it was fitting that Mary be a virgin or Mary be immaculate, that is not meant to say that it was fitting from this or that perspective of this or that culture – rather what is meant is that it was objectively fitting.

That’s what society today does not understand. Clothes aren’t simply something that someone is to wear on his whims. Clothes are meant to express what is objectively true. Everything we do is meant to express what is true … whether much thought is put into it or not. So the question is, “Are these clothes true to my nature as a woman?” or “Are these clothes true to my nature as a man?” or “Do these clothes conform to a proper expression of my womanhood and my person?” etc.

God gave us bodies for a reason. Angels are pure spirits. Rocks and trees are pure matter (even though trees are animated by material principles called “souls”). Only men are “in between” matter and spirit in that we are both spiritual and corporeal, possessing both bodies and souls. Our bodies were made to express the beauty inherent in our souls – especially such beauty as may come to inhere in our souls thanks to the gift of divine life we receive in Baptism and the sacraments. Our clothes are an extension of our bodies and thus our clothes too have the purpose of expressing the beauty inherent in our souls. However, the virtue of modesty may call for a moderation in that expression … for just because something is good does not mean that the whole world needs to see it or that you need to advertise it! 😉 And, to contradict with one’s choice of clothing the sex, manifest in body and soul, that God has given you would be an act of ingratitude as well as an act against the turth, against what you are meant to be.
So should one conclude that pants are acceptable because they are a staple of modern women’s fashion, or should one conclude that they are not acceptable because this is only a recent development in dress and is perhaps one that Catholic culture should never have accepted to begin with?
Good question! 👍

I would say that in some cases the situation may be “gray” meaning that it is difficult to determine whether it is proper or improper and perhaps people would have reasonable disagreements about it. But that should not lead us to totally discard the principle! You don’t discard the air conditioner (or heater) because in some cases it’s not clear whether it would be useful to use it … you don’t conclude, “the answer is not clear in these cases, so the aire conditioner has got to be a totally useless gadget” 😃

I would ask these kinds of questions.

Does the clothing accentuate the natural shape or figure of a woman?

Does the clothing try to make the woman look the same as a man?

Does the clothing allow one to discern whether the person wearing it is a man versus a woman? (Note how you can tell whether a religious is male or female by traditional religious habits)

Does the clothing reflect a special modesty that is proper to women who are called, after the example of Mary, to be modest and humble and quiet in a special way?

Does the clothing express my womanhood, my unique person which includes my being a woman?

Obviously if you wore clothing that said “There is no male and female. God got it wrong.” that would be a terrible sin! But there are ways of expressing that kind of statement without using words. People can express things by gestures, simply the look of their eyes, subtle smiles, and yes, even by their choice of clothing 🙂
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
This is where you are going completely wrong 😃

Masculine clothes are those clothes which are fittingly worn by men

Feminine clothes are those clothes which are fittingly worn by women.

When you start by constructing a strawman, of course you will be left with absurd conclusions 🙂
Of course it is a strawman of sorts. . . It wasn’t a serious argument, but an effort to point out that one can quibble about things down to the level of socks and miss the whole point. The issue isn’t whether women wear something that is also worn by men (socks for example) or vice versa, but whether there are any inherent masculine/feminine qualities to a piece of clothing or if particular patterns of dress within a given culture proclaim a message contrary to that of authentic masculinity and femininity.
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
That’s what society today does not understand. Clothes aren’t simply something that someone is to wear on his whims. Clothes are meant to express what is objectively true. Everything we do is meant to express what is true … whether much thought is put into it or not. So the question is, “Are these clothes true to my nature as a woman?” or “Are these clothes true to my nature as a man?” or “Do these clothes conform to a proper expression of my womanhood and my person?” etc.

I would ask these kinds of questions.

Does the clothing accentuate the natural shape or figure of a woman?

Does the clothing try to make the woman look the same as a man?

Does the clothing allow one to discern whether the person wearing it is a man versus a woman? (Note how you can tell whether a religious is male or female by traditional religious habits)

Does the clothing reflect a special modesty that is proper to women who are called, after the example of Mary, to be modest and humble and quiet in a special way?

Does the clothing express my womanhood, my unique person which includes my being a woman?

Obviously if you wore clothing that said “There is no male and female. God got it wrong.” that would be a terrible sin! But there are ways of expressing that kind of statement without using words. People can express things by gestures, simply the look of their eyes, subtle smiles, and yes, even by their choice of clothing 🙂
(sections of quote removed due to length)

Excellent. I believe I agree with everything you wrote in your entire post. I have some questions:

It is true that the clothing we wear expresses a message about the objective truth of who we are. However, is the message objectively or subjectively present in the clothing? Do particular cuts, weaves, colors, fibers, etc., have inherent meaning, or are they dependent on the context of the culture in which they occur? If objectively present, what is the standard by which we can accurately interpret their universal meaning? If subjective, we must carry out the ongoing work of determining and discerning the current attitudes and thoughts of the culture in which they exist.
 
Anybody here convinced that slacks (well cut to the female figure) are immodest or inherently not feminine? If so, is there a reason that a skirt is objectively more feminine?
 
OK, let’s talk about what Our Lady wore - a long dress and a veil covering her head and shoulders, at least, is what is portrayed.

Now, what did Jesus wear? A long dress (robe) and a shawl or cloak covering his shoulders…

Tell me, how would we describe the difference between men’s and women’s clothes in the 1st century AD. Now, we are not talking about Roman soldier’s garments. Just the ordinary garments of Jews living in Judea, Galilee, etc.

It seems to me the only difference seems to be that a woman covered her hair and a man did not.

Modesty is important, but we mustn’t get tied up with the fashions of 2000 years ago. Women’s pants are not the same as men’s pants. They can be modest, and they can be immodest. It depends on the cut and the fit. Dresses and skirts can also be immodest or modest…
 
Sadly, people don’t want to hear this, whether Catholic or not.

What I have seen people wear to church… oh Lord have mercy! These “altar girls” with mini skirts! Near the Sacred Altar of Our Lord, where his body and blood soul and divinity come to us!

D’evils sure knows how to use anything he can to do his work.

Give the devil his due (for those who still believe in him).

Here we have our Orthodox brothers & sisters who still know how to dress for church.

http://tour.churchofthenativity.net/images/church.jpg
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I may be wrong, I wear dresses, but there are many reasons why a lady would wear something other than a skirt to Holy Mass.

Live through a MI winter and see how cold it would be to have leg braces in a skirt.

I would rather focus on a sweater that just reaches a skirt (exposing her back everytime she leans over) than a lady wearing pants. Some outfits with pants are much more modest. Coming in pink or lavender, they are surely not men’s clothing.

Modesty is an issue which should be addressed with some people, male and female.
I believe that it would be difficult to set a “hard and fast” rule. It’s plainly obvious that some things are inappropriate; it’s plainly obvious that other things are appropriate. Sometimes, it’s not always obvious where the line is.

A few examples:

I live in Wisconsin. The winters here would probably approximate those in Michigan! What might be appropriate for February might well not be appropriate for July! 🙂

At one church I attended, an elderly lady wore pants every Sunday – year 'round. Why? In her youth, she had been badly burned and scarred in a fire. Do I blame her? Not at all!

On another occasion, a “college-age” came for communion wearing a tee-shirt stating “I’m not wearing any underpants”. Inappropriate? Absolutely.

I teach at a (Catholic) university, and I am appalled by the attire of many of the students. We’re not just talking immodest here, we’re talking just plain gross. Male and female. Is this something which needs to be addressed? Absolutely!

A person is called upon to participate at Mass, as a lector or Eucharistic minister. Should such a person (male or female) look presentable, as befits the service of God and the Church? You bet!

Just my two cents worth . . .
 
Here’s my challenge to everyone who’s concerned with modesty:

Find some current fashion trends that are modest and feminine, (or modest and masculine, for guys), and look great in them.

I think capris, flared knee-length and longer skirts, button-up blouses, and cardigans are great progress. Wear stuff like this if you want to look great and look modest!!

I’m in the process of sorting out all my clothes that fit a little too tight, and giving them to my niece. I’m also going to get rid of a number of my t-shirts in an effort to look more feminine. I’m not ready to part with my shorts yet, but I have made a personal decision not to buy another pair.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top